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While I agree with the essence of your comment, I find the statement "Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished" is

While I agree with the essence of your comment, I find the statement "Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished" is questionable. First, it's not "clearly", because the main argument (that he was defending Epstein) is false. Second, as to "unacceptable", it depends to who and when - certain things that were acceptable 20 years ago are unthinkable now. Third, as for "can't go unpunished" - again, the question is who should judge the guilt and who is going to pass sentence.

ahelwer 6y ago
It's way more than the Epstein thing. This has been going on for years. Telling an undergrad he would kill himself if she didn't date him is one example.
- feverzsj 6y ago
  Then ask yourself: When did this happen? Told by who? Any reliable evidence?
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    This has been an established pattern of behavior reported by multiple women over time, fitting with what we know about his interactions & attitude toward female colleagues. Zooming in on a single incident to cross-examine it like a court case is exactly what leads to these zero-consequences outcomes that drive women out of the field.
    - zihotki 6y ago
      That only makes him a weirdo, not more than that. Should he be prosecuted for being weirdo? I doubt so. It was uncomfortable for women but they weren't forced or threatened (remember he was saying he will kill himself, not her/him).
      - ahelwer 6y ago
        We aren't talking about prosecution! We are talking about him facing any consequences whatsoever! The idea that you don't view that situation as threatening is just so myopic. People who are unstable enough to threaten suicide because of romantic rejection are a danger to others, not just themselves. Ask a woman, literally any woman you know, about whether they would feel safe in that situation.
        dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        I was in such a situation twice. My ex-girlfriend threatened she would kill herself if I leave. Another woman said if I don't stay with her she will likely get very ill. It never ever crossed my mind to inform their employers these women were harassing me. Even if I did (why?!) I don't think it would be fair to fire these women.
        ahelwer 6y ago
        Were you also employed or involved at their place of work where they were in a position of authority? No? Then why bring this up? Anyway, we are talking about intermediate consequences.
        dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        Paradoxically, when talking about intermediate consequences, it is Stallman who is a victim here. After two years, the same false accusations are published in all possible media outlets, with no correction of apology. * Techcrunch: "Computer scientist Richard Stallman, who defended Jeffrey Epstein, resigns from MIT CSAIL and the Free Software Foundation" - where in fact RMS never defended Epstein and just called him a rapist. * Motherboard: "Famed Computer Scientist Richard Stallman Described Epstein Victims As 'Entirely Willing'" - this being the most sick twist of what he actually said * The Daily Beast: "Renowned MIT Scientist Defends Epstein: Victims Were ‘Entirely Willing’" - here the falsehood reaches new depths * Daily Mail: "MIT scientist appears to DEFEND Jeffrey Epstein as he claims sex assault victim Virginia Giuffre was 'entirely willing' in alleged rape case in emails leaked by a graduate" - again, anyone who would bother to check the actual email would realize how stupid this is. The longer these falsehoods are repeated, the more people believe in them.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  So how should we punish him? How long did this evil act take place? Do these actions have statute of limitations? In Massachusetts rape has 15 years SoL, but clearly this is a much more severe offense.
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    The point is there was no punishment for that! Nor for the many other things he has done! People closed ranks and it was as if nothing happened. Now the final bill has come due. And you start talking about statute of limitations. This is someone who has acted in a consistent way over many years. He should not be a leader in a project which purports to fight for the freedom of all people. Such a role is a privilege. Statute of limitations is a legal concept applying to the legal arena. This is not that. Stop conflating them.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      This is so completely wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin arguing it with. 1. The Founder of a project is the one who gets the biggest say in who should lead it, not some random virtue signalling dude from the internet. 2. Why should I stop conflating these issues? You judge the person for his actions, just like criminal judges do. However, the very criminal and ugly offense of rape is NOT punishable by the law after a number of years. But you are such a severe judge that you demand a punishment with no lenience or clemency and no statute of limitations for being an unpleasant person who is very awkward with women, and allegedly made someone uncomfortable three decades ago. 3. Found your own project, run it the way you like, decide who will have a 'privilege' to lead it.

ahelwer 6y ago

It's way more than the Epstein thing. This has been going on for years. Telling an undergrad he would kill himself if she didn't date him is one example.

feverzsj 6y ago
Then ask yourself: When did this happen? Told by who? Any reliable evidence?
- ahelwer 6y ago
  This has been an established pattern of behavior reported by multiple women over time, fitting with what we know about his interactions & attitude toward female colleagues. Zooming in on a single incident to cross-examine it like a court case is exactly what leads to these zero-consequences outcomes that drive women out of the field.
  - zihotki 6y ago
    That only makes him a weirdo, not more than that. Should he be prosecuted for being weirdo? I doubt so. It was uncomfortable for women but they weren't forced or threatened (remember he was saying he will kill himself, not her/him).
    - ahelwer 6y ago
      We aren't talking about prosecution! We are talking about him facing any consequences whatsoever! The idea that you don't view that situation as threatening is just so myopic. People who are unstable enough to threaten suicide because of romantic rejection are a danger to others, not just themselves. Ask a woman, literally any woman you know, about whether they would feel safe in that situation.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        I was in such a situation twice. My ex-girlfriend threatened she would kill herself if I leave. Another woman said if I don't stay with her she will likely get very ill. It never ever crossed my mind to inform their employers these women were harassing me. Even if I did (why?!) I don't think it would be fair to fire these women.
        ahelwer 6y ago
        Were you also employed or involved at their place of work where they were in a position of authority? No? Then why bring this up? Anyway, we are talking about intermediate consequences.
        dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        Paradoxically, when talking about intermediate consequences, it is Stallman who is a victim here. After two years, the same false accusations are published in all possible media outlets, with no correction of apology. * Techcrunch: "Computer scientist Richard Stallman, who defended Jeffrey Epstein, resigns from MIT CSAIL and the Free Software Foundation" - where in fact RMS never defended Epstein and just called him a rapist. * Motherboard: "Famed Computer Scientist Richard Stallman Described Epstein Victims As 'Entirely Willing'" - this being the most sick twist of what he actually said * The Daily Beast: "Renowned MIT Scientist Defends Epstein: Victims Were ‘Entirely Willing’" - here the falsehood reaches new depths * Daily Mail: "MIT scientist appears to DEFEND Jeffrey Epstein as he claims sex assault victim Virginia Giuffre was 'entirely willing' in alleged rape case in emails leaked by a graduate" - again, anyone who would bother to check the actual email would realize how stupid this is. The longer these falsehoods are repeated, the more people believe in them.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
So how should we punish him? How long did this evil act take place? Do these actions have statute of limitations? In Massachusetts rape has 15 years SoL, but clearly this is a much more severe offense.
- ahelwer 6y ago
  The point is there was no punishment for that! Nor for the many other things he has done! People closed ranks and it was as if nothing happened. Now the final bill has come due. And you start talking about statute of limitations. This is someone who has acted in a consistent way over many years. He should not be a leader in a project which purports to fight for the freedom of all people. Such a role is a privilege. Statute of limitations is a legal concept applying to the legal arena. This is not that. Stop conflating them.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    This is so completely wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin arguing it with. 1. The Founder of a project is the one who gets the biggest say in who should lead it, not some random virtue signalling dude from the internet. 2. Why should I stop conflating these issues? You judge the person for his actions, just like criminal judges do. However, the very criminal and ugly offense of rape is NOT punishable by the law after a number of years. But you are such a severe judge that you demand a punishment with no lenience or clemency and no statute of limitations for being an unpleasant person who is very awkward with women, and allegedly made someone uncomfortable three decades ago. 3. Found your own project, run it the way you like, decide who will have a 'privilege' to lead it.