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I've been talking with friends about this issue and it really seems to come down to this: for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to imp
by ahelwer 6y ago
I've been talking with friends about this issue and it really seems to come down to this: for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general. Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished. However, like in all organizations I've seen (especially universities or hospitals dealing with sexual harassment from profs/attendings) there are only two types of consequences available: absolutely nothing, or complete exile. The organization rallies to protect the offender over and over until eventually a tidal wave becomes overwhelming and the organization is forced to purge the offender completely. This is bad for everyone: bad for the people being abused (and who will be abused), bad for the organization's reputation, bad for the offender themselves as there is never incentive to correct their behavior! I don't really know whether it's possible to implement a system of "intermediate" consequences but the lack of such a relief valve does serious harm in the long term. Regrettably in this system, exiling the offender is preferable to nothing being done yet again.
- enriquto 6y ago> for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general This is not particular to small organizations, it's a feature of the whole society. This attitude is one of the hallmarks of a move towards totalitarianism. There is no compromise possible, total defeat or total annihilation of opposing views are the only options.
- ahelwer 6y agoThis isn't an attitude, it's a response to the reality that intermediate consequences are never implemented. Solve that problem and you'll solve this cancel culture stuff people are complaining about.
- goalieca 6y agoPunishment vs rehabilitation. In this case you can have a chat with Stallman about the consequences of the pen and how people felt when they read his words and have him make a public statement afterwards.
- ahelwer 6y agoYeah, except even that has not happened over the long history of Stallman's bad behavior. People close ranks and support him. So finally he goes and defends pedophilia or whatever right in the middle of a huge scandal about academia's links to a child sex trafficker, and that puts him over the top. This is exactly what I'm talking about! The time for Stallman to sit down and write an apology for his actions was years ago. That ship has sailed.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y agoWhile I agree with the essence of your comment, I find the statement "Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished" is questionable. First, it's not "clearly", because the main argument (that he was defending Epstein) is false. Second, as to "unacceptable", it depends to who and when - certain things that were acceptable 20 years ago are unthinkable now. Third, as for "can't go unpunished" - again, the question is who should judge the guilt and who is going to pass sentence.
- ahelwer 6y agoIt's way more than the Epstein thing. This has been going on for years. Telling an undergrad he would kill himself if she didn't date him is one example.
- feverzsj 6y agoThen ask yourself: When did this happen? Told by who? Any reliable evidence?
- ahelwer 6y agoThis has been an established pattern of behavior reported by multiple women over time, fitting with what we know about his interactions & attitude toward female colleagues. Zooming in on a single incident to cross-examine it like a court case is exactly what leads to these zero-consequences outcomes that drive women out of the field.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]