5 ms·

Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts

31 points by polaris64 6y ago

mijoharas 6y ago
Can anyone provide any more context on this graph?
- przmk 6y ago
  There are two letters currently being signed by people either for or against the removal of RMS from the FSF. The against letter is here : https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.git... And the for is here : https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io You can find the number of votes on the respective websites for each letter or by checking the number of merged pull requests.
- polaris64 6y ago
  I'm generating it every 10 minutes based on the current number of signatures on each of the letters. If you want the raw CSV it can be accessed here: https://www.polaris64.net/resources/support-or-ostracise-richard-stallman/data.csv https://www.polaris64.net/resources/support-or-ostracise-ric... I did this as a way to visualise the number of signatures over time, just as a matter of interest.
- feverzsj 6y ago
  https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
nabla9 6y ago
It this how HR issues are settled in free software? With pressure groups? Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > Where I can sign to support impartial investigation. You can sign the "support" letter. It says clearly that RMS is not above criticism, that it welcomes discussion on all the issues, but that the smear campaign supported by the other letter is unacceptable. Besides, notice that the promoters of the pro-ostracization letter are not open for discussion. Any discussion or move towards a compromise (e.g., by questioning RMS's fit as a leader while rejecting the lies of the letter) is ruthlessly suppressed.
- lettergram 6y ago
  I think all the arguments about ostracizing him are open. Most are pretty out of context or admittedly he apologized for. To me, this looks more like a group of people who don’t like RMS joining hands with industry to remove RMS AND THE ENTIRE FSF board. RMS did nothing legally wrong, that’s why he’s not in prison and there’s no investigation. Because he took no actions. From my perspective, the “ostracize RMS” crowd appear like bigots who are attacking someone with autism for personal gain. Yes he did something potentially inappropriate, he apologized and we should work on reforming. If there’s no forgiveness for someone who had a different opinion (he didn’t act on anything, as far as we know), then there will be no quarter. No one wants to live in a world with no recourse.
john37386 6y ago
Why is this post not flagged vs this one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 What is the reasoning at HN for allowing one side of the story and censuring the other side. Very disappointed at HN moderators...
- shawnz 6y ago
  It was posted just minutes ago. Also, flagging is done by users. EDIT: As you can see it's dead now. EDIT: And now it's back.
  - tomxor 6y ago
    aaand it's gone again. It seems like bitcoin and RMS are two impossible topics for HN now.
- tomxor 6y ago
  I do find it worrying how people here use flagging for anything that is controversial or where the community is highly divided, flagging is not for downvoting... these things need to be discussed not marked as irrelevant or inappropriate.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > these things need to be discussed not marked as irrelevant or inappropriate. To be fair, "these things" are being discussed here every day, with lots of comments and no intent of suppression. Maybe some users are tired of seeing the same subject appear many times per day with no actual news, and they are flagging it as a form of protest. It would be still an inappropriate usage of flagging, but somewhat understandable.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    Flagging has been used for disagreement for a long time. Unfortunately, it seems that the number of controversial topics is steadily increasing so I wonder if flagging is still the optimal mechanism to handle it.
grlass 6y ago
Is this Sybil attack resistant?
- gerikson 6y ago
  Considering anyone can create a GH account, not very.
ahelwer 6y ago
I've been talking with friends about this issue and it really seems to come down to this: for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general. Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished. However, like in all organizations I've seen (especially universities or hospitals dealing with sexual harassment from profs/attendings) there are only two types of consequences available: absolutely nothing, or complete exile. The organization rallies to protect the offender over and over until eventually a tidal wave becomes overwhelming and the organization is forced to purge the offender completely. This is bad for everyone: bad for the people being abused (and who will be abused), bad for the organization's reputation, bad for the offender themselves as there is never incentive to correct their behavior! I don't really know whether it's possible to implement a system of "intermediate" consequences but the lack of such a relief valve does serious harm in the long term. Regrettably in this system, exiling the offender is preferable to nothing being done yet again.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general This is not particular to small organizations, it's a feature of the whole society. This attitude is one of the hallmarks of a move towards totalitarianism. There is no compromise possible, total defeat or total annihilation of opposing views are the only options.
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    This isn't an attitude, it's a response to the reality that intermediate consequences are never implemented. Solve that problem and you'll solve this cancel culture stuff people are complaining about.
    - goalieca 6y ago
      Punishment vs rehabilitation. In this case you can have a chat with Stallman about the consequences of the pen and how people felt when they read his words and have him make a public statement afterwards.

31 points by polaris64 6y ago

mijoharas 6y ago

Can anyone provide any more context on this graph?

przmk 6y ago
There are two letters currently being signed by people either for or against the removal of RMS from the FSF. The against letter is here : https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.git... And the for is here : https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io You can find the number of votes on the respective websites for each letter or by checking the number of merged pull requests.
polaris64 6y ago
I'm generating it every 10 minutes based on the current number of signatures on each of the letters. If you want the raw CSV it can be accessed here: https://www.polaris64.net/resources/support-or-ostracise-richard-stallman/data.csv https://www.polaris64.net/resources/support-or-ostracise-ric... I did this as a way to visualise the number of signatures over time, just as a matter of interest.
feverzsj 6y ago
https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

nabla9 6y ago

It this how HR issues are settled in free software? With pressure groups? Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.

enriquto 6y ago
> Where I can sign to support impartial investigation. You can sign the "support" letter. It says clearly that RMS is not above criticism, that it welcomes discussion on all the issues, but that the smear campaign supported by the other letter is unacceptable. Besides, notice that the promoters of the pro-ostracization letter are not open for discussion. Any discussion or move towards a compromise (e.g., by questioning RMS's fit as a leader while rejecting the lies of the letter) is ruthlessly suppressed.
lettergram 6y ago
I think all the arguments about ostracizing him are open. Most are pretty out of context or admittedly he apologized for. To me, this looks more like a group of people who don’t like RMS joining hands with industry to remove RMS AND THE ENTIRE FSF board. RMS did nothing legally wrong, that’s why he’s not in prison and there’s no investigation. Because he took no actions. From my perspective, the “ostracize RMS” crowd appear like bigots who are attacking someone with autism for personal gain. Yes he did something potentially inappropriate, he apologized and we should work on reforming. If there’s no forgiveness for someone who had a different opinion (he didn’t act on anything, as far as we know), then there will be no quarter. No one wants to live in a world with no recourse.

john37386 6y ago

Why is this post not flagged vs this one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 What is the reasoning at HN for allowing one side of the story and censuring the other side. Very disappointed at HN moderators...

shawnz 6y ago
It was posted just minutes ago. Also, flagging is done by users. EDIT: As you can see it's dead now. EDIT: And now it's back.
- tomxor 6y ago
  aaand it's gone again. It seems like bitcoin and RMS are two impossible topics for HN now.
tomxor 6y ago
I do find it worrying how people here use flagging for anything that is controversial or where the community is highly divided, flagging is not for downvoting... these things need to be discussed not marked as irrelevant or inappropriate.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > these things need to be discussed not marked as irrelevant or inappropriate. To be fair, "these things" are being discussed here every day, with lots of comments and no intent of suppression. Maybe some users are tired of seeing the same subject appear many times per day with no actual news, and they are flagging it as a form of protest. It would be still an inappropriate usage of flagging, but somewhat understandable.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  Flagging has been used for disagreement for a long time. Unfortunately, it seems that the number of controversial topics is steadily increasing so I wonder if flagging is still the optimal mechanism to handle it.

grlass 6y ago

Is this Sybil attack resistant?

gerikson 6y ago
Considering anyone can create a GH account, not very.

ahelwer 6y ago

I've been talking with friends about this issue and it really seems to come down to this: for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general. Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished. However, like in all organizations I've seen (especially universities or hospitals dealing with sexual harassment from profs/attendings) there are only two types of consequences available: absolutely nothing, or complete exile. The organization rallies to protect the offender over and over until eventually a tidal wave becomes overwhelming and the organization is forced to purge the offender completely. This is bad for everyone: bad for the people being abused (and who will be abused), bad for the organization's reputation, bad for the offender themselves as there is never incentive to correct their behavior! I don't really know whether it's possible to implement a system of "intermediate" consequences but the lack of such a relief valve does serious harm in the long term. Regrettably in this system, exiling the offender is preferable to nothing being done yet again.

enriquto 6y ago
> for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general This is not particular to small organizations, it's a feature of the whole society. This attitude is one of the hallmarks of a move towards totalitarianism. There is no compromise possible, total defeat or total annihilation of opposing views are the only options.
- ahelwer 6y ago
  This isn't an attitude, it's a response to the reality that intermediate consequences are never implemented. Solve that problem and you'll solve this cancel culture stuff people are complaining about.
  - goalieca 6y ago
    Punishment vs rehabilitation. In this case you can have a chat with Stallman about the consequences of the pen and how people felt when they read his words and have him make a public statement afterwards.