5 ms·

>... ntpd, DNS, dhcpd These are separate services, with separate binaries, with separate packages for most distributions and their use is optional; they have t

>... ntpd, DNS, dhcpd These are separate services, with separate binaries, with separate packages for most distributions and their use is optional; they have their uses. For example, most distributions won't use systemd-networkd, because it is (intentionally) quite limited and they use NetworkManager anyway. RHEL8 for example doesn't even ship a package systemd-networkd.

throw0101a 6y ago
> These are separate services, with separate binaries, with separate packages Then why are they in the same repo as the udevd code? And why did udevd have to be pulled into the same repo as the init code when it was doing just fine outside of it?
- vetinari 6y ago
  Probably because it was not doing just fine outside of it. If you think they took the wrong approach and yours is the right one, show them by doing.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > If you think they took the wrong approach and yours is the right one, show them by doing. If Roger Ebert said a movie was awful, did people expect him to write, produce, direct, and/or act in one? If Doug DeMuro said a car handles badly, are people expecting him to get a mechanical engineering degree and build a better one?
    - faho 6y ago
      Ebert did write a movie: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Valley_of_the_Dolls https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Valley_of_the_Dol...
      - throw0101a 6y ago
        Yes, I know. :) And that would probably be the level of quality of any code I tried to write. :)
    - vetinari 6y ago
      So what weight should throw0101a's word have? Why? Since throw0101a has exactly zero public record of understanding the topic at hand, and everything he provided is an opinion, why should be that opinion taken into account? What exactly is his point, except for demonstrating that throw0101a doesn't like the existing approach? The show them better is one way to establish your credentials that you know what you are talking about. There are other ways to achieve similar effect, but peanut gallery isn't it.
      - throw0101a 6y ago
        > So what weight should throw0101a's word have? Why? About the same as any other rando's on the Internet. Take it or leave it. Up or down vote me. As I type this: I have 23 imaginary Internet points on the post that kicked-off this sub-thread, and 0 points on a post bringing up Ebert and DeMuro. Whatever.
        vetinari 6y ago
        Do you do the discussion for imaginary internet points? I'm neither down nor up voting you; I consider doing that to people I discuss with a bad form (yes, that's opinion too). However, it helps the discussion if there are arguments for the positions of those discussing; the point is not for either side to "win" (whatever that means and however you measure that "win"), but to find the best outcome after considering all valid arguments. However, that does not work when there aren't any arguments. Vaguely liking or not liking something, and having no idea about the
        throw0101a 6y ago
        > Do you do the discussion for imaginary internet points? That's what Bitcoin is and people assign value to those useless bits don't they? What's the point of life if you can't fret over magnetic ones and zeros?
        vetinari 6y ago
        The value of any currency is in that, that you can get material stuff in exchange. The biggie historically used to be to be able pay the taxes, today getting extra heaps of atoms delivered to your doorstep does the job too. Quite difficult to do with imaginary internet points tho ;)
candiddevmike 6y ago
What part of networkd do you find limited compared to other tools?
- vetinari 6y ago
  NM can manage VPNs and modems (LTE, etc) for example. Don't get me wrong, systemd-networkd is fine for server or static usage; NM is better for desktop/laptop use.
  - BenjiWiebe 6y ago
    I found wireguard tunnels easier to set up in systemd-networkd then NM. systemd-networkd can handle VPNs for at least some use cases.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Most of these services have a dependency on the service manager and can't run without it. For other services, such as journald and udevd, the dependency also works in reverse and the service manager can't run without the services. In many cases, it's not entirely clear why they depend on the service manager itself. logind in particular was moved into systemd “in anticipation of the single writer cgroup architecture", an architecture that never came to be because it was quite clearly a very bad idea, and then elogind was forked to separate it again with no loss of functionality. There is no reason for logind to exist, elogind should be the only thing that exists as it does the same thing without depending on systemd; elogind can also be used in conjunction with sytemd with no loss of functionality. Even stranger things happen, such as DBus performing activation viā systemd by use of a private, nonsstandard a.p.i. for which there are standardized protocols specified by Linux-base that systemd also supports. That they chose to use a specific unstable, undocumented a.p.i. rather than a standardized one to do this is certainly a political rather than technical decision to create a dependency for it's own sake. And that is indeed what many RedHat projects have done over the years; they have created dependencies on each other of little to no technical merit as form of product tying to encourage adoption of more RedHat software. — this is certainly not limited to sytemd.

throw0101a 6y ago

> These are separate services, with separate binaries, with separate packages Then why are they in the same repo as the udevd code? And why did udevd have to be pulled into the same repo as the init code when it was doing just fine outside of it?

vetinari 6y ago
Probably because it was not doing just fine outside of it. If you think they took the wrong approach and yours is the right one, show them by doing.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > If you think they took the wrong approach and yours is the right one, show them by doing. If Roger Ebert said a movie was awful, did people expect him to write, produce, direct, and/or act in one? If Doug DeMuro said a car handles badly, are people expecting him to get a mechanical engineering degree and build a better one?
  - faho 6y ago
    Ebert did write a movie: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Valley_of_the_Dolls https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Valley_of_the_Dol...
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      Yes, I know. :) And that would probably be the level of quality of any code I tried to write. :)
  - vetinari 6y ago
    So what weight should throw0101a's word have? Why? Since throw0101a has exactly zero public record of understanding the topic at hand, and everything he provided is an opinion, why should be that opinion taken into account? What exactly is his point, except for demonstrating that throw0101a doesn't like the existing approach? The show them better is one way to establish your credentials that you know what you are talking about. There are other ways to achieve similar effect, but peanut gallery isn't it.
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      > So what weight should throw0101a's word have? Why? About the same as any other rando's on the Internet. Take it or leave it. Up or down vote me. As I type this: I have 23 imaginary Internet points on the post that kicked-off this sub-thread, and 0 points on a post bringing up Ebert and DeMuro. Whatever.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        Do you do the discussion for imaginary internet points? I'm neither down nor up voting you; I consider doing that to people I discuss with a bad form (yes, that's opinion too). However, it helps the discussion if there are arguments for the positions of those discussing; the point is not for either side to "win" (whatever that means and however you measure that "win"), but to find the best outcome after considering all valid arguments. However, that does not work when there aren't any arguments. Vaguely liking or not liking something, and having no idea about the
        throw0101a 6y ago
        > Do you do the discussion for imaginary internet points? That's what Bitcoin is and people assign value to those useless bits don't they? What's the point of life if you can't fret over magnetic ones and zeros?
        vetinari 6y ago
        The value of any currency is in that, that you can get material stuff in exchange. The biggie historically used to be to be able pay the taxes, today getting extra heaps of atoms delivered to your doorstep does the job too. Quite difficult to do with imaginary internet points tho ;)

candiddevmike 6y ago

What part of networkd do you find limited compared to other tools?

vetinari 6y ago
NM can manage VPNs and modems (LTE, etc) for example. Don't get me wrong, systemd-networkd is fine for server or static usage; NM is better for desktop/laptop use.
- BenjiWiebe 6y ago
  I found wireguard tunnels easier to set up in systemd-networkd then NM. systemd-networkd can handle VPNs for at least some use cases.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

Most of these services have a dependency on the service manager and can't run without it. For other services, such as journald and udevd, the dependency also works in reverse and the service manager can't run without the services. In many cases, it's not entirely clear why they depend on the service manager itself. logind in particular was moved into systemd “in anticipation of the single writer cgroup architecture", an architecture that never came to be because it was quite clearly a very bad idea, and then elogind was forked to separate it again with no loss of functionality. There is no reason for logind to exist, elogind should be the only thing that exists as it does the same thing without depending on systemd; elogind can also be used in conjunction with sytemd with no loss of functionality. Even stranger things happen, such as DBus performing activation viā systemd by use of a private, nonsstandard a.p.i. for which there are standardized protocols specified by Linux-base that systemd also supports. That they chose to use a specific unstable, undocumented a.p.i. rather than a standardized one to do this is certainly a political rather than technical decision to create a dependency for it's own sake. And that is indeed what many RedHat projects have done over the years; they have created dependencies on each other of little to no technical merit as form of product tying to encourage adoption of more RedHat software. — this is certainly not limited to sytemd.