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I don’t care whether it was antitrust decision by (kangooroo) courts or not. As a Russian, I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with

I don’t care whether it was antitrust decision by (kangooroo) courts or not. As a Russian, I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance. One of the reasons I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware.

orbital-decay 6y ago
Trust me, I don't have a single illusion about Yandex or the government. Neither I say the solution was perfect (it's terrible and awkward like most regulations are). But I also don't have any illusions about any other company. Making it sound like Apple is cooperating with some nefarious plot is a stretch. They've been forced to back down in a fairly clear case. Dealing with Yandex own business ambitions or the government spyware or regulatory overreach are entirely different questions that are out of the scope of this case and should be solved in their specific ways.
- lotusmars 6y ago
  The difference between giving data to Apple or Yandex/Mail.ru for Russians is this: Apple will help advertisers and spammers target you. Russian corporations will help thugs, racketeers and corrupt police target you and government will sell your data on the black market. So no, it’s a question of personal security, not of simple annoyance. I would much prefered if Apple left Russian market and we had to import iPhones via backchannels. That’s how bad privacy situation here is. There is no nefarious plot. Apple just gave us and our data to criminals to keep small insignificant market.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    American corporations also help thugs, racketeers, and police target you. Did you not recently see the scandal with police and repo agents (and anyone else willing witu the money) paying for location data of users? Besides, can you not simply uninstall or not use Yandex or Mail.ru?
    - lotusmars 6y ago
      [edited]
      - monocasa 6y ago
        You can buy at least Americans' fine grained location data, sold by corporations. The government in fact argues that it's not subject to fourth amendment protections since it's just available on the open market. https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-memo-admits-buying-smartphone-location-data https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-...
        lotusmars 6y ago
        [edited]
        monocasa 6y ago
        You don't have to use dark web here either, the data brokers are regular companies with physical addresses and everything. It's just not common because people don't know about it, but there are no practical or legal barriers. And I know about this from outside of the verge, I just believe in providing citations.
      - kenniskrag 6y ago
        Car holder information is public data. Just send a text message (by mail or phone) to a endpoint an receive the holder information. (Source: https://asa.ch/strassenverkehrsaemter/halterabfragen/ https://asa.ch/strassenverkehrsaemter/halterabfragen/)
  - FearlessNebula 6y ago
    Can't you still import an American iPhone through a back channel without all the Russian government garbage?
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      Yeah, that would be probably smuggeling, with all the consequences. (probably a bribe in russia)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - vasachi 6y ago
        Huh? No, you'd just have to pay an import fee of about $10.
      - konart 6y ago
        It is not smuggling if we are talking about buying a device for personal use. Buying a full truck of these - sure.
  - f6v 6y ago
    > Russian corporations will help thugs, racketeers and corrupt police target you and government will sell your data on the black market. There's so many feelings in this statement, but so little substance.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - lootsauce 6y ago
    The difference is a fantasy at least in the US. Your online activity even if protected by the company and not sold on the open market is subject to the subpoena powers of the state. These powers apply to all "business records" and have been contorted to serve as a justification of mass surveillance. This illustrates the how governments are using tech companies to do their dirty work. They are the velvet glove over the iron hand of the state. They conceal and enable that which would otherwise be an obvious authoritarian grab prevented by civil liberties providing a convenient fig leaf over over otherwise naked government power. I would expect this to be the case in all jurisdictions these companies operate in.
  - zepto 6y ago
    > Apple will help advertisers and spammers target you. What are you talking about? Apple are generally known for doing the opposite.
beckman466 6y ago
> I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance Really? So the USA and it’s allies don’t spy, and aren’t oppressive? What do you do with the information revealed by Snowden (about the NSA and Prism), Assange, and with the Crypto AG story? I’m curious if you see those those things as less severe than Russia’s oppression/corruption?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kspacewalk2 6y ago
  Speaking first and foremost about actions against its own people, none of the (real and troublesome) activities of the US government are in the same league as what the oppressive authoritarian Russian state is doing. The comparison is insulting (to the intelligence of the reader, first and foremost). Yandex cooperates with the Russian state, which sends people to (horrendous, torturous) prisons for, among other things, reposting a meme critical of its hard line of oppressing LGBT people. It assassinates domestic political opponents. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing. No comparison can be made with the US government.
  - mdpopescu 6y ago
    The US government sends people to prison for owning the wrong plant or the wrong type of lobster. It assassinates political opponents - definitely foreign, likely domestic. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing (they actually called Zuckerberg in front of Congress because Facebook was not censoring enough people! Facebook! That was freaking mind-blowing.) Yep, the difference is amazing.
    - 42_ 6y ago
      If you're Chinese or Russian, ignore my comment. But if you're an American, you need a bit of perspective. Literally most countries on Earth do orders of magnitude of worse stuff on a daily basis than US. And literally no other country has an egalitarian setup where anyone can potentially succeed. The countries that are objectively better than US in terms of human rights for own citizens, are very few (Switzerland, Nordic countries, few others which are either small/or have homogeneous population). I am stunned when I read comments suggesting that US is as bad or Russia or China.
nuker 6y ago
> I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware. You may search for "icloud servers Russia", it is likely the same deal as with China, people's iCloud data accessible by state agencies. What I'm curious about, is how it applies to people with dual citizenship, living in another country for decades?
- lotusmars 6y ago
  There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. You can bring a lot of “Apple is just as bad” outsider evidence, but I don’t know anyone who had their data leaked by Apple. Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases of people harrassed and targeted by using Russian networks. I mean you can basically buy my phone call history and parking surveillance for a few bucks online.
  - f6v 6y ago
    > There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. The only difference is that while US law enforcement can read Facebook messages, it has no interest in Ivan from Samara. But have no illusion: every government wants as much access to data as it can, and will use it against you. > Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases Still anecdotal.
AniseAbyss 6y ago
As a Russian you could try to change your government. I don't really understand what people want here. Companies to ignore the laws made by sovereign governments? That's cyberpunk stuff.
- nuker 6y ago
  Some companies are bigger than many sovereign countries, just saying
f6v 6y ago
As a Russian, I'm using Yandex from time to time and see it no better or worse than FAANG. Keep in mind that parent doesn't speak for everyone.
- benjohnson 6y ago
  As an American, I use Yandex image search for any sort of 'edgy' meme that I want to find again - Google image search has been filtering anything that might offend.
- 420codebro 6y ago
  I use Yandex for reverse image search. Please never ruin that.
novok 6y ago
You can delete and not use the yandex software in this case right? It seems more like govt mandated but removable crapware added more for protectionist reasons than spying reasons in this case.
- sebow 6y ago
  From what i've heard(I am not russian but merely from EE), it doesn't really matter, because as soon as you start to use that hardware/device, "Putin knows" where&what. So the argument doesn't stand.The spyware being removable is "good enough" only if you don't care that the government already knows your IMEI, location,and every other data by the time you get to delete the crapware. This anti-trust cat & mouse game is really getting old.The device should not have any pre-installed apps choosing one side or the other(the opposite would be to provide all alternatives, which is virtually impossible). In the case 'critical' apps are necessary for the user to do basic operations, the software preinstalled should be entirely FOSS.I fail to see a better alternative than this.

orbital-decay 6y ago

Trust me, I don't have a single illusion about Yandex or the government. Neither I say the solution was perfect (it's terrible and awkward like most regulations are). But I also don't have any illusions about any other company. Making it sound like Apple is cooperating with some nefarious plot is a stretch. They've been forced to back down in a fairly clear case. Dealing with Yandex own business ambitions or the government spyware or regulatory overreach are entirely different questions that are out of the scope of this case and should be solved in their specific ways.

lotusmars 6y ago
The difference between giving data to Apple or Yandex/Mail.ru for Russians is this: Apple will help advertisers and spammers target you. Russian corporations will help thugs, racketeers and corrupt police target you and government will sell your data on the black market. So no, it’s a question of personal security, not of simple annoyance. I would much prefered if Apple left Russian market and we had to import iPhones via backchannels. That’s how bad privacy situation here is. There is no nefarious plot. Apple just gave us and our data to criminals to keep small insignificant market.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  American corporations also help thugs, racketeers, and police target you. Did you not recently see the scandal with police and repo agents (and anyone else willing witu the money) paying for location data of users? Besides, can you not simply uninstall or not use Yandex or Mail.ru?
  - lotusmars 6y ago
    [edited]
    - monocasa 6y ago
      You can buy at least Americans' fine grained location data, sold by corporations. The government in fact argues that it's not subject to fourth amendment protections since it's just available on the open market. https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-memo-admits-buying-smartphone-location-data https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-...
      - lotusmars 6y ago
        [edited]
        monocasa 6y ago
        You don't have to use dark web here either, the data brokers are regular companies with physical addresses and everything. It's just not common because people don't know about it, but there are no practical or legal barriers. And I know about this from outside of the verge, I just believe in providing citations.
    - kenniskrag 6y ago
      Car holder information is public data. Just send a text message (by mail or phone) to a endpoint an receive the holder information. (Source: https://asa.ch/strassenverkehrsaemter/halterabfragen/ https://asa.ch/strassenverkehrsaemter/halterabfragen/)
- FearlessNebula 6y ago
  Can't you still import an American iPhone through a back channel without all the Russian government garbage?
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Yeah, that would be probably smuggeling, with all the consequences. (probably a bribe in russia)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - vasachi 6y ago
      Huh? No, you'd just have to pay an import fee of about $10.
    - konart 6y ago
      It is not smuggling if we are talking about buying a device for personal use. Buying a full truck of these - sure.
- f6v 6y ago
  > Russian corporations will help thugs, racketeers and corrupt police target you and government will sell your data on the black market. There's so many feelings in this statement, but so little substance.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- lootsauce 6y ago
  The difference is a fantasy at least in the US. Your online activity even if protected by the company and not sold on the open market is subject to the subpoena powers of the state. These powers apply to all "business records" and have been contorted to serve as a justification of mass surveillance. This illustrates the how governments are using tech companies to do their dirty work. They are the velvet glove over the iron hand of the state. They conceal and enable that which would otherwise be an obvious authoritarian grab prevented by civil liberties providing a convenient fig leaf over over otherwise naked government power. I would expect this to be the case in all jurisdictions these companies operate in.
- zepto 6y ago
  > Apple will help advertisers and spammers target you. What are you talking about? Apple are generally known for doing the opposite.

beckman466 6y ago

> I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance Really? So the USA and it’s allies don’t spy, and aren’t oppressive? What do you do with the information revealed by Snowden (about the NSA and Prism), Assange, and with the Crypto AG story? I’m curious if you see those those things as less severe than Russia’s oppression/corruption?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kspacewalk2 6y ago
Speaking first and foremost about actions against its own people, none of the (real and troublesome) activities of the US government are in the same league as what the oppressive authoritarian Russian state is doing. The comparison is insulting (to the intelligence of the reader, first and foremost). Yandex cooperates with the Russian state, which sends people to (horrendous, torturous) prisons for, among other things, reposting a meme critical of its hard line of oppressing LGBT people. It assassinates domestic political opponents. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing. No comparison can be made with the US government.
- mdpopescu 6y ago
  The US government sends people to prison for owning the wrong plant or the wrong type of lobster. It assassinates political opponents - definitely foreign, likely domestic. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing (they actually called Zuckerberg in front of Congress because Facebook was not censoring enough people! Facebook! That was freaking mind-blowing.) Yep, the difference is amazing.
  - 42_ 6y ago
    If you're Chinese or Russian, ignore my comment. But if you're an American, you need a bit of perspective. Literally most countries on Earth do orders of magnitude of worse stuff on a daily basis than US. And literally no other country has an egalitarian setup where anyone can potentially succeed. The countries that are objectively better than US in terms of human rights for own citizens, are very few (Switzerland, Nordic countries, few others which are either small/or have homogeneous population). I am stunned when I read comments suggesting that US is as bad or Russia or China.

nuker 6y ago

> I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware. You may search for "icloud servers Russia", it is likely the same deal as with China, people's iCloud data accessible by state agencies. What I'm curious about, is how it applies to people with dual citizenship, living in another country for decades?

lotusmars 6y ago
There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. You can bring a lot of “Apple is just as bad” outsider evidence, but I don’t know anyone who had their data leaked by Apple. Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases of people harrassed and targeted by using Russian networks. I mean you can basically buy my phone call history and parking surveillance for a few bucks online.
- f6v 6y ago
  > There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. The only difference is that while US law enforcement can read Facebook messages, it has no interest in Ivan from Samara. But have no illusion: every government wants as much access to data as it can, and will use it against you. > Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases Still anecdotal.

AniseAbyss 6y ago

As a Russian you could try to change your government. I don't really understand what people want here. Companies to ignore the laws made by sovereign governments? That's cyberpunk stuff.

nuker 6y ago
Some companies are bigger than many sovereign countries, just saying

f6v 6y ago

As a Russian, I'm using Yandex from time to time and see it no better or worse than FAANG. Keep in mind that parent doesn't speak for everyone.

benjohnson 6y ago
As an American, I use Yandex image search for any sort of 'edgy' meme that I want to find again - Google image search has been filtering anything that might offend.
420codebro 6y ago
I use Yandex for reverse image search. Please never ruin that.

novok 6y ago

You can delete and not use the yandex software in this case right? It seems more like govt mandated but removable crapware added more for protectionist reasons than spying reasons in this case.

sebow 6y ago
From what i've heard(I am not russian but merely from EE), it doesn't really matter, because as soon as you start to use that hardware/device, "Putin knows" where&what. So the argument doesn't stand.The spyware being removable is "good enough" only if you don't care that the government already knows your IMEI, location,and every other data by the time you get to delete the crapware. This anti-trust cat & mouse game is really getting old.The device should not have any pre-installed apps choosing one side or the other(the opposite would be to provide all alternatives, which is virtually impossible). In the case 'critical' apps are necessary for the user to do basic operations, the software preinstalled should be entirely FOSS.I fail to see a better alternative than this.