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> March 2021, Apple reportedly agrees to preinstall Russian software Wait, this regulation is a result of an antitrust case against Google and Apple started by

> March 2021, Apple reportedly agrees to preinstall Russian software Wait, this regulation is a result of an antitrust case against Google and Apple started by Yandex, as both were using their platforms against their direct competitor. The same thing that many people want to see in EU and US. Clearly it doesn't belong to the list and the author did zero research on this, but included anyway because it fits the bad guy narrative they are trying to push. What's even funnier is that Apple threatened to withdraw from the russian market rather than having to do this, so the question is who's the real bad guy here (how about "a tech giant threatens an unimportant country to be able to bully domestic competitors"?). I guess everybody is horrible in this story, because the government had to compromise and omit the requirement to be able to uninstall this software, and they also included many companies who were large enough to be able to lobby their interests, because obviously they didn't want to make a single company special. Now Samsung reportedly has a backdoor deal with Yandex to install their software as system on Samsung phones, so it's being shoved down customers' throats. Nice.

lotusmars 6y ago
I don’t care whether it was antitrust decision by (kangooroo) courts or not. As a Russian, I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance. One of the reasons I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware.
- orbital-decay 6y ago
  Trust me, I don't have a single illusion about Yandex or the government. Neither I say the solution was perfect (it's terrible and awkward like most regulations are). But I also don't have any illusions about any other company. Making it sound like Apple is cooperating with some nefarious plot is a stretch. They've been forced to back down in a fairly clear case. Dealing with Yandex own business ambitions or the government spyware or regulatory overreach are entirely different questions that are out of the scope of this case and should be solved in their specific ways.
  - lotusmars 6y ago
    The difference between giving data to Apple or Yandex/Mail.ru for Russians is this: Apple will help advertisers and spammers target you. Russian corporations will help thugs, racketeers and corrupt police target you and government will sell your data on the black market. So no, it’s a question of personal security, not of simple annoyance. I would much prefered if Apple left Russian market and we had to import iPhones via backchannels. That’s how bad privacy situation here is. There is no nefarious plot. Apple just gave us and our data to criminals to keep small insignificant market.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      American corporations also help thugs, racketeers, and police target you. Did you not recently see the scandal with police and repo agents (and anyone else willing witu the money) paying for location data of users? Besides, can you not simply uninstall or not use Yandex or Mail.ru?
      - lotusmars 6y ago
        [edited]
        monocasa 6y ago
        You can buy at least Americans' fine grained location data, sold by corporations. The government in fact argues that it's not subject to fourth amendment protections since it's just available on the open market. https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-memo-admits-buying-smartphone-location-data https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-...
        lotusmars 6y ago
        [edited]
        6y ago
- beckman466 6y ago
  > I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance Really? So the USA and it’s allies don’t spy, and aren’t oppressive? What do you do with the information revealed by Snowden (about the NSA and Prism), Assange, and with the Crypto AG story? I’m curious if you see those those things as less severe than Russia’s oppression/corruption?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - kspacewalk2 6y ago
    Speaking first and foremost about actions against its own people, none of the (real and troublesome) activities of the US government are in the same league as what the oppressive authoritarian Russian state is doing. The comparison is insulting (to the intelligence of the reader, first and foremost). Yandex cooperates with the Russian state, which sends people to (horrendous, torturous) prisons for, among other things, reposting a meme critical of its hard line of oppressing LGBT people. It assassinates domestic political opponents. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing. No comparison can be made with the US government.
    - mdpopescu 6y ago
      The US government sends people to prison for owning the wrong plant or the wrong type of lobster. It assassinates political opponents - definitely foreign, likely domestic. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing (they actually called Zuckerberg in front of Congress because Facebook was not censoring enough people! Facebook! That was freaking mind-blowing.) Yep, the difference is amazing.
      - 42_ 6y ago
        If you're Chinese or Russian, ignore my comment. But if you're an American, you need a bit of perspective. Literally most countries on Earth do orders of magnitude of worse stuff on a daily basis than US. And literally no other country has an egalitarian setup where anyone can potentially succeed. The countries that are objectively better than US in terms of human rights for own citizens, are very few (Switzerland, Nordic countries, few others which are either small/or have homogeneous population). I am stunned when I read comments suggesting that US is as bad or Russia or China.
- nuker 6y ago
  > I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware. You may search for "icloud servers Russia", it is likely the same deal as with China, people's iCloud data accessible by state agencies. What I'm curious about, is how it applies to people with dual citizenship, living in another country for decades?
  - lotusmars 6y ago
    There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. You can bring a lot of “Apple is just as bad” outsider evidence, but I don’t know anyone who had their data leaked by Apple. Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases of people harrassed and targeted by using Russian networks. I mean you can basically buy my phone call history and parking surveillance for a few bucks online.
    - f6v 6y ago
      > There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. The only difference is that while US law enforcement can read Facebook messages, it has no interest in Ivan from Samara. But have no illusion: every government wants as much access to data as it can, and will use it against you. > Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases Still anecdotal.
- AniseAbyss 6y ago
  As a Russian you could try to change your government. I don't really understand what people want here. Companies to ignore the laws made by sovereign governments? That's cyberpunk stuff.
  - nuker 6y ago
    Some companies are bigger than many sovereign countries, just saying
- f6v 6y ago
  As a Russian, I'm using Yandex from time to time and see it no better or worse than FAANG. Keep in mind that parent doesn't speak for everyone.
  - benjohnson 6y ago
    As an American, I use Yandex image search for any sort of 'edgy' meme that I want to find again - Google image search has been filtering anything that might offend.
  - 420codebro 6y ago
    I use Yandex for reverse image search. Please never ruin that.
- novok 6y ago
  You can delete and not use the yandex software in this case right? It seems more like govt mandated but removable crapware added more for protectionist reasons than spying reasons in this case.
  - sebow 6y ago
    From what i've heard(I am not russian but merely from EE), it doesn't really matter, because as soon as you start to use that hardware/device, "Putin knows" where&what. So the argument doesn't stand.The spyware being removable is "good enough" only if you don't care that the government already knows your IMEI, location,and every other data by the time you get to delete the crapware. This anti-trust cat & mouse game is really getting old.The device should not have any pre-installed apps choosing one side or the other(the opposite would be to provide all alternatives, which is virtually impossible). In the case 'critical' apps are necessary for the user to do basic operations, the software preinstalled should be entirely FOSS.I fail to see a better alternative than this.
CubsFan1060 6y ago
To be clear, this line is incorrect: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-government-approved-apps-russia/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-governme... They will be offered to be installed immediately, but not preinstalled. Maybe not great, but certainly better than preinstalled.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  And unlike say the copies of Facebook that Samsung has preinstalled, you can delete these afterward if you change your mind and decide you don’t want it. They’re not unremovably baked into the system.
aleksi 6y ago
> Now Samsung reportedly has a backdoor deal with Yandex to install their software as system on Samsung phones, so it's being shoved down customers' throats. Yandex CEO says there is no backdoor deal, just misunderstanding of the law by Samsung, and they asked Samsung to make those apps uninstallable: https://www.facebook.com/tigrankh/posts/10157500257791403 https://www.facebook.com/tigrankh/posts/10157500257791403
ComodoHacker 6y ago
Do you have any evidence to call it "a backdoor deal"? Please stick to the facts.
- orbital-decay 6y ago
  No clear evidence, sorry, you're right. It's only a rumor that is circulating everywhere, I should have made this clear but only realized this now. Another poster above/below noted that it might have been a misunderstanding of the law by Samsung, according to Yandex CEO. Which is also possible of course. (nonetheless, they still shipped unremovable software in a firmware update)
  - 3np 6y ago
    There's so much uninstallable malware on Samsung Galaxy phones that they probably did it of sheer habit.
ProAm 6y ago
Apple already did it [1] "Apple bent its rules for Russia—and other countries will take note" [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/apple-bent-its-rules-for-russia-and-other-countries-will-take-note/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/apple-bent-its-rules...
justapassenger 6y ago
> What's even funnier is that Apple threatened to withdraw from the russian market rather than having to do this, so the question is who's the real bad guy here Problem is that Apple for years claims moral high ground, while they’re happily cooperating with authoritarian governments around the world. They can claim moral high ground if they leave after threatening, not just for threatening. You have to put your money where your mouth is. Like Facebook did with China (not saying they have moral high ground, but that’s an example of company losing tons of profits and helping competition grow, to avoid bending to authoritarian government).
- tarsinge 6y ago
  From what I remember Apple had the philosophy caring about their customer, which in 2021 encompass security and data protection. But it's unrelated to banning apps and freedom of speech. They are compliant with local regulations the same as a bank service, a wifi router or any manufactured product have to be compliant. So I would say it's more of a recent marketing problem, it's true they care about customers, but they go too far as saying they are human rights advocates (and also their focus on services put them in a more difficult position like Google or Facebook which IMHO they were not before as a product company).
- ksec 6y ago
  Exactly. I have been saying Apple is now walking on the same path as Google once did. Their "Do No Evil" line. Had Apple never claimed moral high ground, they would then have the benefit of doubt. And increasingly there are more and more evidence their words and actions differs.

lotusmars 6y ago

I don’t care whether it was antitrust decision by (kangooroo) courts or not. As a Russian, I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance. One of the reasons I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware.

orbital-decay 6y ago
Trust me, I don't have a single illusion about Yandex or the government. Neither I say the solution was perfect (it's terrible and awkward like most regulations are). But I also don't have any illusions about any other company. Making it sound like Apple is cooperating with some nefarious plot is a stretch. They've been forced to back down in a fairly clear case. Dealing with Yandex own business ambitions or the government spyware or regulatory overreach are entirely different questions that are out of the scope of this case and should be solved in their specific ways.
- lotusmars 6y ago
  The difference between giving data to Apple or Yandex/Mail.ru for Russians is this: Apple will help advertisers and spammers target you. Russian corporations will help thugs, racketeers and corrupt police target you and government will sell your data on the black market. So no, it’s a question of personal security, not of simple annoyance. I would much prefered if Apple left Russian market and we had to import iPhones via backchannels. That’s how bad privacy situation here is. There is no nefarious plot. Apple just gave us and our data to criminals to keep small insignificant market.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    American corporations also help thugs, racketeers, and police target you. Did you not recently see the scandal with police and repo agents (and anyone else willing witu the money) paying for location data of users? Besides, can you not simply uninstall or not use Yandex or Mail.ru?
    - lotusmars 6y ago
      [edited]
      - monocasa 6y ago
        You can buy at least Americans' fine grained location data, sold by corporations. The government in fact argues that it's not subject to fourth amendment protections since it's just available on the open market. https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-memo-admits-buying-smartphone-location-data https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/22/22244848/us-intelligence-...
        lotusmars 6y ago
        [edited]
        6y ago
beckman466 6y ago
> I don’t want to use Yandex in any capacity since it’s complicit with oppressive regime and gradually becomes part of it, sharing data and targeting citizen with surveillance Really? So the USA and it’s allies don’t spy, and aren’t oppressive? What do you do with the information revealed by Snowden (about the NSA and Prism), Assange, and with the Crypto AG story? I’m curious if you see those those things as less severe than Russia’s oppression/corruption?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kspacewalk2 6y ago
  Speaking first and foremost about actions against its own people, none of the (real and troublesome) activities of the US government are in the same league as what the oppressive authoritarian Russian state is doing. The comparison is insulting (to the intelligence of the reader, first and foremost). Yandex cooperates with the Russian state, which sends people to (horrendous, torturous) prisons for, among other things, reposting a meme critical of its hard line of oppressing LGBT people. It assassinates domestic political opponents. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing. No comparison can be made with the US government.
  - mdpopescu 6y ago
    The US government sends people to prison for owning the wrong plant or the wrong type of lobster. It assassinates political opponents - definitely foreign, likely domestic. It snoops on, disrupts and if necessary curtails any serious efforts at political organizing (they actually called Zuckerberg in front of Congress because Facebook was not censoring enough people! Facebook! That was freaking mind-blowing.) Yep, the difference is amazing.
    - 42_ 6y ago
      If you're Chinese or Russian, ignore my comment. But if you're an American, you need a bit of perspective. Literally most countries on Earth do orders of magnitude of worse stuff on a daily basis than US. And literally no other country has an egalitarian setup where anyone can potentially succeed. The countries that are objectively better than US in terms of human rights for own citizens, are very few (Switzerland, Nordic countries, few others which are either small/or have homogeneous population). I am stunned when I read comments suggesting that US is as bad or Russia or China.
nuker 6y ago
> I used Apple is because it was relatively free of Russian state-sponsored spyware. You may search for "icloud servers Russia", it is likely the same deal as with China, people's iCloud data accessible by state agencies. What I'm curious about, is how it applies to people with dual citizenship, living in another country for decades?
- lotusmars 6y ago
  There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. You can bring a lot of “Apple is just as bad” outsider evidence, but I don’t know anyone who had their data leaked by Apple. Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases of people harrassed and targeted by using Russian networks. I mean you can basically buy my phone call history and parking surveillance for a few bucks online.
  - f6v 6y ago
    > There is a difference between this and VK (owned by Mail.ru) basically having a web interface for police or anyone with money to read your messages. The only difference is that while US law enforcement can read Facebook messages, it has no interest in Ivan from Samara. But have no illusion: every government wants as much access to data as it can, and will use it against you. > Yet I have dozens of anecdotal cases Still anecdotal.
AniseAbyss 6y ago
As a Russian you could try to change your government. I don't really understand what people want here. Companies to ignore the laws made by sovereign governments? That's cyberpunk stuff.
- nuker 6y ago
  Some companies are bigger than many sovereign countries, just saying
f6v 6y ago
As a Russian, I'm using Yandex from time to time and see it no better or worse than FAANG. Keep in mind that parent doesn't speak for everyone.
- benjohnson 6y ago
  As an American, I use Yandex image search for any sort of 'edgy' meme that I want to find again - Google image search has been filtering anything that might offend.
- 420codebro 6y ago
  I use Yandex for reverse image search. Please never ruin that.
novok 6y ago
You can delete and not use the yandex software in this case right? It seems more like govt mandated but removable crapware added more for protectionist reasons than spying reasons in this case.
- sebow 6y ago
  From what i've heard(I am not russian but merely from EE), it doesn't really matter, because as soon as you start to use that hardware/device, "Putin knows" where&what. So the argument doesn't stand.The spyware being removable is "good enough" only if you don't care that the government already knows your IMEI, location,and every other data by the time you get to delete the crapware. This anti-trust cat & mouse game is really getting old.The device should not have any pre-installed apps choosing one side or the other(the opposite would be to provide all alternatives, which is virtually impossible). In the case 'critical' apps are necessary for the user to do basic operations, the software preinstalled should be entirely FOSS.I fail to see a better alternative than this.

CubsFan1060 6y ago

To be clear, this line is incorrect: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-government-approved-apps-russia/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-governme... They will be offered to be installed immediately, but not preinstalled. Maybe not great, but certainly better than preinstalled.

wlesieutre 6y ago
And unlike say the copies of Facebook that Samsung has preinstalled, you can delete these afterward if you change your mind and decide you don’t want it. They’re not unremovably baked into the system.

aleksi 6y ago

> Now Samsung reportedly has a backdoor deal with Yandex to install their software as system on Samsung phones, so it's being shoved down customers' throats. Yandex CEO says there is no backdoor deal, just misunderstanding of the law by Samsung, and they asked Samsung to make those apps uninstallable: https://www.facebook.com/tigrankh/posts/10157500257791403 https://www.facebook.com/tigrankh/posts/10157500257791403

ComodoHacker 6y ago

Do you have any evidence to call it "a backdoor deal"? Please stick to the facts.

orbital-decay 6y ago
No clear evidence, sorry, you're right. It's only a rumor that is circulating everywhere, I should have made this clear but only realized this now. Another poster above/below noted that it might have been a misunderstanding of the law by Samsung, according to Yandex CEO. Which is also possible of course. (nonetheless, they still shipped unremovable software in a firmware update)
- 3np 6y ago
  There's so much uninstallable malware on Samsung Galaxy phones that they probably did it of sheer habit.

ProAm 6y ago

Apple already did it [1] "Apple bent its rules for Russia—and other countries will take note" [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/apple-bent-its-rules-for-russia-and-other-countries-will-take-note/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/apple-bent-its-rules...

justapassenger 6y ago

> What's even funnier is that Apple threatened to withdraw from the russian market rather than having to do this, so the question is who's the real bad guy here Problem is that Apple for years claims moral high ground, while they’re happily cooperating with authoritarian governments around the world. They can claim moral high ground if they leave after threatening, not just for threatening. You have to put your money where your mouth is. Like Facebook did with China (not saying they have moral high ground, but that’s an example of company losing tons of profits and helping competition grow, to avoid bending to authoritarian government).

tarsinge 6y ago
From what I remember Apple had the philosophy caring about their customer, which in 2021 encompass security and data protection. But it's unrelated to banning apps and freedom of speech. They are compliant with local regulations the same as a bank service, a wifi router or any manufactured product have to be compliant. So I would say it's more of a recent marketing problem, it's true they care about customers, but they go too far as saying they are human rights advocates (and also their focus on services put them in a more difficult position like Google or Facebook which IMHO they were not before as a product company).
ksec 6y ago
Exactly. I have been saying Apple is now walking on the same path as Google once did. Their "Do No Evil" line. Had Apple never claimed moral high ground, they would then have the benefit of doubt. And increasingly there are more and more evidence their words and actions differs.