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Well the U.K. government is a democratically elected one for a start. On the Northern Ireland border, wasn’t it the EU that that unilaterally broke the protocol

by bb123 6y ago

Well the U.K. government is a democratically elected one for a start. On the Northern Ireland border, wasn’t it the EU that that unilaterally broke the protocol by invoking article 16 without even checking with Ireland? My point is that governments do things that anger other countries all the time. That doesn’t make them a bad government, that’s just politics. There is however a clear and significant difference between a democratically elected government and an authoritarian regime.

lucian1900 6y ago
The UK is a literal kingdom with a first past the post voting system and a media dominated by Tories (including the BBC). Recently they’re trying to ban all protest while the police is beating up those of us that resist. China’s elected national congress that includes easy recall and competence-based civil servant positions doesn’t seem any less democratic.
- bb123 6y ago
  Come on bud, that’s a silly argument disproved with a 2 second google search. The U.K. ranks 16th on the democracy index, and China ranks 151st. At this point I can only assume you’re arguing in bad faith for fun.
  - xtian 6y ago
    Oh, “the democracy index”? Good thing we have a neutral and objective measure of each country’s quantity of abstract democracy. I’m sure there’s no cultural chauvinism or politically-motivated biases at play here.
    - bb123 6y ago
      They publish extremely detailed methodology for each country, so feel free to browse and let me know which parts you disagree with (assuming you're not in China, because you probably won't be able to access this there. All that democracy hey ;) https://freedomhouse.org/country/china/freedom-world/2021 https://freedomhouse.org/country/china/freedom-world/2021 Some highlights for China: * There are no direct or competitive elections for national executive leaders. * Elections are not administered by an independent body. * China’s one-party system rigorously suppresses the development of any organized political opposition * The political system is dominated in practice by ethnic Han Chinese men. Societal groups such as women, ethnic and religious minorities, and LGBT+ people have no opportunity to gain meaningful political representation * China is home to one of the world’s most restrictive media environments and its most sophisticated system of censorship, particularly online. * None of China’s national leaders are freely elected, and the legislature plays a minimal role in policymaking and the development of new laws. * The CCP regime has established a multifaceted apparatus to control all aspects of religious activity It goes on and on. All of this seems pretty tangible to me? Again please let me know what I'm missing.
      - xtian 6y ago
        The National People's Congress in China has more members per capita than the US House or Senate as well as more independents and minority party representation. The NPC has a higher percentage of women than the US Congress (exceeding the world average). Ethnic minorities make up 8% of China's overall population, but they make up 14.7% of the seats of the NPC. They also make up 7.3% of the more than 90 million members of the Communist Party of China (which also consists of 27.2% women). Ethnic minorities make up 39% of the overall population of the US, but only 25% of the US Congress. A study by the Harvard Kennedy School found 93.1% satisfaction with the central government in China in 2016. US Congress currently has a 29.3% approval rating, but has been hovering below 20% for most of the last decade. The two viable US political parties are overwhelmingly funded by billionaires and large corporations. Those two parties decide the criteria for acceptance into the presidential debates which prevents minority parties from gaining national prominence. Billionaires and large corporations also own all the major media outlets and platforms, and they use that power to control narratives and deplatform inconvenient political figures and ideas. Therefore China is more democratic than the US. See how easy that is?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        bb123 6y ago
        You picked on the smallest point that I’d quoted, and then finished the argument with complete conjecture about the US (we were discussing the UK?). Have you actually read the source? Specifically the part about systematic extermination of minorities? I can’t help but feel people like you would have been defending the Nazi party like this in the run up to WWII.
        xtian 6y ago
        I'm from the US so that's what I'm qualified to speak about. It rates highly on this supposedly authoritative index so that's why I used it as an example. What I mentioned about the US is not conjecture. The funding of US political parties is public record. The Commission on Presidential Debates was created by the Democratic and Republican parties. The ownership of the major US media platforms is also public record, and they just unilaterally deplatflormed Donald Trump and QAnon groups. What's utter nonsense is saying the NPC "plays a minimal role in policymaking and the development of new laws" or that the CPC has a "multifaceted apparatus to control all aspects of religious activity." I guarantee I've looked into the claims of systemic extermination and genocide against China more seriously than you. I wouldn't be speaking positively about the Chinese government if I thought those claims held water.
    - stupendousyappi 6y ago
      Do you have any specific criticisms of that index, or just generalized ideological grievances? Moreover, are you saying that the UK is not meaningfully more democratic than China, and therefore that index is inaccurate?
      - xtian 6y ago
        I don't think "democracy" is something you can measure objectively like a scientist in a lab. What these indexes measure is proximity to Western liberalism, but I think different peoples have the right to their own forms of government.
  - lucian1900 6y ago
    Living in the UK, I can tell you it’s definitely not a democracy. Chinese friends I spoke to feel the opposite about their own country. Who wrote that index? Where are they from? What interests do they have? How do they show up high in search results?
    - bb123 6y ago
      This is such an ignorant and dangerous point of view. By disregarding the very real and very important rights that one has the UK to free and fair elections, due process and a free media, you're excusing the horrible and dangerous things that China does. Have you spoken to any friends from Hong Kong or Taiwan on their opinion of Chinese "democracy"? Or the Uighur muslims in concentration camps? Or the political dissidents that disappear? thought not. You'd rather spout 14-year old level edgy half thoughts.
      - lucian1900 6y ago
        And you’d rather repeat imperialist propaganda, much of which contradicts itself or has been repeatedly debunked. Last UK election, a small sliver of all votes actually mattered in electing the government. My vote in a solid Tory borough may as well not have been counted. What due process exactly? The one provided to Assange? Or to those beaten by police for daring to protest? Or to the hundreds that die in police custody? What free press? Most papers defend the Tories. Have you even seen how demonised Corbyn was almost universally, how unified the slander was? I’ve spoken to a quite a few people that live in Hong Kong, many support the PRC and condemn the US-backed unrest. I know a few people in Taiwan, many are for some form of unification with the mainland. I know few people in Xinjiang, but from what they said the situation in the western press is being vastly misrepresented.
        bb123 6y ago
        I suppose at this point we will have to agree to disagree, but I’ve got to ask if the U.K. is such a hellscape, why live there?
deleted 6y ago
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marcus_holmes 6y ago
OK, so what's the defence for the blatant defiance of international law in the Chagos Islands?

by bb123 6y ago

lucian1900 6y ago

The UK is a literal kingdom with a first past the post voting system and a media dominated by Tories (including the BBC). Recently they’re trying to ban all protest while the police is beating up those of us that resist. China’s elected national congress that includes easy recall and competence-based civil servant positions doesn’t seem any less democratic.

bb123 6y ago
Come on bud, that’s a silly argument disproved with a 2 second google search. The U.K. ranks 16th on the democracy index, and China ranks 151st. At this point I can only assume you’re arguing in bad faith for fun.
- xtian 6y ago
  Oh, “the democracy index”? Good thing we have a neutral and objective measure of each country’s quantity of abstract democracy. I’m sure there’s no cultural chauvinism or politically-motivated biases at play here.
  - bb123 6y ago
    They publish extremely detailed methodology for each country, so feel free to browse and let me know which parts you disagree with (assuming you're not in China, because you probably won't be able to access this there. All that democracy hey ;) https://freedomhouse.org/country/china/freedom-world/2021 https://freedomhouse.org/country/china/freedom-world/2021 Some highlights for China: * There are no direct or competitive elections for national executive leaders. * Elections are not administered by an independent body. * China’s one-party system rigorously suppresses the development of any organized political opposition * The political system is dominated in practice by ethnic Han Chinese men. Societal groups such as women, ethnic and religious minorities, and LGBT+ people have no opportunity to gain meaningful political representation * China is home to one of the world’s most restrictive media environments and its most sophisticated system of censorship, particularly online. * None of China’s national leaders are freely elected, and the legislature plays a minimal role in policymaking and the development of new laws. * The CCP regime has established a multifaceted apparatus to control all aspects of religious activity It goes on and on. All of this seems pretty tangible to me? Again please let me know what I'm missing.
    - xtian 6y ago
      The National People's Congress in China has more members per capita than the US House or Senate as well as more independents and minority party representation. The NPC has a higher percentage of women than the US Congress (exceeding the world average). Ethnic minorities make up 8% of China's overall population, but they make up 14.7% of the seats of the NPC. They also make up 7.3% of the more than 90 million members of the Communist Party of China (which also consists of 27.2% women). Ethnic minorities make up 39% of the overall population of the US, but only 25% of the US Congress. A study by the Harvard Kennedy School found 93.1% satisfaction with the central government in China in 2016. US Congress currently has a 29.3% approval rating, but has been hovering below 20% for most of the last decade. The two viable US political parties are overwhelmingly funded by billionaires and large corporations. Those two parties decide the criteria for acceptance into the presidential debates which prevents minority parties from gaining national prominence. Billionaires and large corporations also own all the major media outlets and platforms, and they use that power to control narratives and deplatform inconvenient political figures and ideas. Therefore China is more democratic than the US. See how easy that is?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - bb123 6y ago
        You picked on the smallest point that I’d quoted, and then finished the argument with complete conjecture about the US (we were discussing the UK?). Have you actually read the source? Specifically the part about systematic extermination of minorities? I can’t help but feel people like you would have been defending the Nazi party like this in the run up to WWII.
        xtian 6y ago
        I'm from the US so that's what I'm qualified to speak about. It rates highly on this supposedly authoritative index so that's why I used it as an example. What I mentioned about the US is not conjecture. The funding of US political parties is public record. The Commission on Presidential Debates was created by the Democratic and Republican parties. The ownership of the major US media platforms is also public record, and they just unilaterally deplatflormed Donald Trump and QAnon groups. What's utter nonsense is saying the NPC "plays a minimal role in policymaking and the development of new laws" or that the CPC has a "multifaceted apparatus to control all aspects of religious activity." I guarantee I've looked into the claims of systemic extermination and genocide against China more seriously than you. I wouldn't be speaking positively about the Chinese government if I thought those claims held water.
  - stupendousyappi 6y ago
    Do you have any specific criticisms of that index, or just generalized ideological grievances? Moreover, are you saying that the UK is not meaningfully more democratic than China, and therefore that index is inaccurate?
    - xtian 6y ago
      I don't think "democracy" is something you can measure objectively like a scientist in a lab. What these indexes measure is proximity to Western liberalism, but I think different peoples have the right to their own forms of government.
- lucian1900 6y ago
  Living in the UK, I can tell you it’s definitely not a democracy. Chinese friends I spoke to feel the opposite about their own country. Who wrote that index? Where are they from? What interests do they have? How do they show up high in search results?
  - bb123 6y ago
    This is such an ignorant and dangerous point of view. By disregarding the very real and very important rights that one has the UK to free and fair elections, due process and a free media, you're excusing the horrible and dangerous things that China does. Have you spoken to any friends from Hong Kong or Taiwan on their opinion of Chinese "democracy"? Or the Uighur muslims in concentration camps? Or the political dissidents that disappear? thought not. You'd rather spout 14-year old level edgy half thoughts.
    - lucian1900 6y ago
      And you’d rather repeat imperialist propaganda, much of which contradicts itself or has been repeatedly debunked. Last UK election, a small sliver of all votes actually mattered in electing the government. My vote in a solid Tory borough may as well not have been counted. What due process exactly? The one provided to Assange? Or to those beaten by police for daring to protest? Or to the hundreds that die in police custody? What free press? Most papers defend the Tories. Have you even seen how demonised Corbyn was almost universally, how unified the slander was? I’ve spoken to a quite a few people that live in Hong Kong, many support the PRC and condemn the US-backed unrest. I know a few people in Taiwan, many are for some form of unification with the mainland. I know few people in Xinjiang, but from what they said the situation in the western press is being vastly misrepresented.
      - bb123 6y ago
        I suppose at this point we will have to agree to disagree, but I’ve got to ask if the U.K. is such a hellscape, why live there?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

marcus_holmes 6y ago

OK, so what's the defence for the blatant defiance of international law in the Chagos Islands?