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I second that. I feel like I have less and less choice. I can either accept all systemd provides or switch to some fringe distro. I switched from Windows to Li

I second that. I feel like I have less and less choice. I can either accept all systemd provides or switch to some fringe distro. I switched from Windows to Linux 20 years ago to have more choice.

kaba0 6y ago
I really don’t get this mentality. Where are you limited exactly? You can trivially view and edit every single service file to achieve basically anything. But a modern system does require some building blocks. I mean, the linux kernel is similarly limiting you to eg. have a file-oriented abstraction, and you can’t just swap it out to a different kernel. Systemd is much more modular than that for example.
- lmm 6y ago
  Pre-systemd you actually could switch out the kernel on Debian - you could be running Hurd or the FreeBSD kernel, but the rest of the OS would still be Debian.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    I believe it is only correlation, not causation. I think it has more to do with the linux kernel being much more advanced than the others, and some of the userspace depending more and more on these advanced features. But I’m not sure about this. Aren’t you referring instead to debian itself providing packages for all of them and the package manager running on each distro? Because I can’t really believe you could just swap out the kernel and be on your way in most cases. If it is the latter, than it was more due to the fact that debian maintainers voted against supporting other systems, because it is a great amount of additional work.
    - lmm 6y ago
      > I believe it is only correlation, not causation. It's a bit more direct than that - previous init systems were kernel-agnostic whereas systemd is explicitly tightly coupled to Linux and udev, and encourages the rest of userland to be tightly coupled to it. > I think it has more to do with the linux kernel being much more advanced than the others, and some of the userspace depending more and more on these advanced features. I wouldn't say "more advanced" - in many ways FreeBSD jails are a better technical solution than Linux's various container systems.
- zepearl 6y ago
  I think that lmilcin was referring to "either use systemd on distribution X or switch to another distribution". E.g. in Gentoo you can choose to use SystemD or OpenRC, but I think that most other distros don't provide such a choice.
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Most don’t provide such a choice, because it’s a huge undertaking to basically package and maintain 2+ versions of everything, especially when one is unified among distros and often created upstream. And of course after a certain size it has to do with network effects, but it was chosen based on merits — for example debian voted multiple times on the issue and I would say their voting system puts most countries’ to shame. I believe up until recently the vote on debian was basically use systemd but if the maintainer wants to, they can also support alternative init systems, but there was not much interest. But of course anyone can help the fringe distros on another init systems to make them less fringe.
    - zepearl 6y ago
      > Most don’t provide such a choice, because it’s a huge undertaking to basically package and maintain 2+ versions of everything Yes, I absolutely agree regarding the effort. (not sure about that vote - I honestly didn't follow that discussion) In parallel, some software (cannot recall - maybe the Gnome window mgr) does rely (in its original form) on SystemD being there => I don't think that's fair, kind of forcing the distros that want to offer it to adopt it => I don't like it - I do see the advantage of having that kind of integration, but I still don't like it :P
      - spiralx 6y ago
        Gnome's dependency on logind came about because there originally was a dependency on a different library that one person had written, had pretty much stopped working on, and nobody wanted to take on maintaining it or adding it to Gnome itself. The dependency no longer exists because some people took logind from systemd, made it a standalone package and called it elogind lol, and now you can use that instead of logind.
viraptor 6y ago
Or disable the elements you don't want and switch to a different implementations. What exactly are you missing right now?
- turminal 6y ago
  Switching to different implementations is getting harder with every systemd release.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    Have you got examples for what got harder to replace?
    - turminal 6y ago
      The era when running gnome or any of its derivatives without systemd comes to mind. If it weren't for Gentoo's forks of systemd components, the whole situation would be much worse in general.
  - prussian 6y ago
    I literally work on a device that is still uses an inittab (hopefully changing that in 2021). the only limiting factor is yourself. 1) eudev works 2) elogind works 3) you can still use sysvinit or literally the multitude of others
    - turminal 6y ago
      > I literally work on a device that is still uses an inittab. The fact that this is so rare it has to be pointed out like this kind of speaks for itself. > 1) eudev works 2) elogind works 3) you can still use sysvinit or literally the multitude of others. I am aware of these and use them on nearly all my machines. Note that both elogind and eudev required a significant amount of work by the Gentoo community when they were pulled out of the systemd codebase.
vetinari 6y ago
Well: http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/ http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  Linux is, or at least was, about Freedom; and Freedom is about choice. You may not mind the decisions others make on your behalf, or care about the options that are no longer possible, but that doesn't mean that Linux hasn't lost some of its identity.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    Yes and no. Yes, in the sense, that if you want, you can eventually make it the way you want. No in the sense, that others won't do it for you; they will make linux distribution the way they consider it best, not how you consider it the best. So if you want to pick and choose the components the way you want and not the way the distributions consider the best, be ready to put in the manhours.
lmm 6y ago
I'd strongly recommend switching to FreeBSD. It's pretty similar to Linux of 20 years ago: some things might require a bit of manual configuration, but it's rock solid after you've done that.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Including graphics programming experience of GNU/Linux 20 years ago.

I second that. I feel like I have less and less choice. I can either accept all systemd provides or switch to some fringe distro. I switched from Windows to Linux 20 years ago to have more choice.

kaba0 6y ago

I really don’t get this mentality. Where are you limited exactly? You can trivially view and edit every single service file to achieve basically anything. But a modern system does require some building blocks. I mean, the linux kernel is similarly limiting you to eg. have a file-oriented abstraction, and you can’t just swap it out to a different kernel. Systemd is much more modular than that for example.

lmm 6y ago
Pre-systemd you actually could switch out the kernel on Debian - you could be running Hurd or the FreeBSD kernel, but the rest of the OS would still be Debian.
- kaba0 6y ago
  I believe it is only correlation, not causation. I think it has more to do with the linux kernel being much more advanced than the others, and some of the userspace depending more and more on these advanced features. But I’m not sure about this. Aren’t you referring instead to debian itself providing packages for all of them and the package manager running on each distro? Because I can’t really believe you could just swap out the kernel and be on your way in most cases. If it is the latter, than it was more due to the fact that debian maintainers voted against supporting other systems, because it is a great amount of additional work.
  - lmm 6y ago
    > I believe it is only correlation, not causation. It's a bit more direct than that - previous init systems were kernel-agnostic whereas systemd is explicitly tightly coupled to Linux and udev, and encourages the rest of userland to be tightly coupled to it. > I think it has more to do with the linux kernel being much more advanced than the others, and some of the userspace depending more and more on these advanced features. I wouldn't say "more advanced" - in many ways FreeBSD jails are a better technical solution than Linux's various container systems.
zepearl 6y ago
I think that lmilcin was referring to "either use systemd on distribution X or switch to another distribution". E.g. in Gentoo you can choose to use SystemD or OpenRC, but I think that most other distros don't provide such a choice.
- kaba0 6y ago
  Most don’t provide such a choice, because it’s a huge undertaking to basically package and maintain 2+ versions of everything, especially when one is unified among distros and often created upstream. And of course after a certain size it has to do with network effects, but it was chosen based on merits — for example debian voted multiple times on the issue and I would say their voting system puts most countries’ to shame. I believe up until recently the vote on debian was basically use systemd but if the maintainer wants to, they can also support alternative init systems, but there was not much interest. But of course anyone can help the fringe distros on another init systems to make them less fringe.
  - zepearl 6y ago
    > Most don’t provide such a choice, because it’s a huge undertaking to basically package and maintain 2+ versions of everything Yes, I absolutely agree regarding the effort. (not sure about that vote - I honestly didn't follow that discussion) In parallel, some software (cannot recall - maybe the Gnome window mgr) does rely (in its original form) on SystemD being there => I don't think that's fair, kind of forcing the distros that want to offer it to adopt it => I don't like it - I do see the advantage of having that kind of integration, but I still don't like it :P
    - spiralx 6y ago
      Gnome's dependency on logind came about because there originally was a dependency on a different library that one person had written, had pretty much stopped working on, and nobody wanted to take on maintaining it or adding it to Gnome itself. The dependency no longer exists because some people took logind from systemd, made it a standalone package and called it elogind lol, and now you can use that instead of logind.

viraptor 6y ago

Or disable the elements you don't want and switch to a different implementations. What exactly are you missing right now?

turminal 6y ago
Switching to different implementations is getting harder with every systemd release.
- viraptor 6y ago
  Have you got examples for what got harder to replace?
  - turminal 6y ago
    The era when running gnome or any of its derivatives without systemd comes to mind. If it weren't for Gentoo's forks of systemd components, the whole situation would be much worse in general.
- prussian 6y ago
  I literally work on a device that is still uses an inittab (hopefully changing that in 2021). the only limiting factor is yourself. 1) eudev works 2) elogind works 3) you can still use sysvinit or literally the multitude of others
  - turminal 6y ago
    > I literally work on a device that is still uses an inittab. The fact that this is so rare it has to be pointed out like this kind of speaks for itself. > 1) eudev works 2) elogind works 3) you can still use sysvinit or literally the multitude of others. I am aware of these and use them on nearly all my machines. Note that both elogind and eudev required a significant amount of work by the Gentoo community when they were pulled out of the systemd codebase.

vetinari 6y ago

Well: http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/ http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/

dane-pgp 6y ago
Linux is, or at least was, about Freedom; and Freedom is about choice. You may not mind the decisions others make on your behalf, or care about the options that are no longer possible, but that doesn't mean that Linux hasn't lost some of its identity.
- vetinari 6y ago
  Yes and no. Yes, in the sense, that if you want, you can eventually make it the way you want. No in the sense, that others won't do it for you; they will make linux distribution the way they consider it best, not how you consider it the best. So if you want to pick and choose the components the way you want and not the way the distributions consider the best, be ready to put in the manhours.

lmm 6y ago

I'd strongly recommend switching to FreeBSD. It's pretty similar to Linux of 20 years ago: some things might require a bit of manual configuration, but it's rock solid after you've done that.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 6y ago
Including graphics programming experience of GNU/Linux 20 years ago.