5 ms·

You might be getting closer but someone who is just barely making ends meet could be ruined by that, where someone with obscene wealth can lose even 10% and sti

You might be getting closer but someone who is just barely making ends meet could be ruined by that, where someone with obscene wealth can lose even 10% and still buy a yacht minutes later.

luckylion 6y ago
Yeah, but he can only do that a few times. It's a much, much better system than what we have today for most things. Of course, it hinges on being able to tell how much income they have, which is (at least in Germany) the hard part, as the defendant is not required to help.
- tpxl 6y ago
  The tax authority generally has that data.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    And that generally does not matter, as the DA/judge will estimate the income based on available information. They will usually _not_ involve the tax authority, won't check your bank account etc. If their estimate is too high, you can provide information showing your actual income. If it's too low (which it usually is, because they're conservative in those estimates), you smile and walk out, having saved (a lot of) money.
alpaca128 6y ago
In my homecountry someone gets hundreds of speeding tickets per year, always on the same road. Doesn't care. With a properly scaling fine they'll stop doing that quickly or lose out on more than just a little yacht. I'd say it's a pretty decent step, especially when combined with confiscation of the vehicle if it's a repeat offender or a severe case. As you said it may not be perfect...but I'd rather see that than some careless people risking lives of others just because a speeding ticket is small change for them.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  Hows this: get three speeding tickets, get your license suspended.
  - alpaca128 6y ago
    Well so what, then they'll drive without a license. As long as the punishment isn't sufficient to make the person care enough you will only nudge the threshold a bit under which people actually feel it. Edit: Same with using the phone while driving. It's one of the biggest contributing factors to road accidents, yet here the fine for doing it is barely above the price for a decent headset. So most just don't care and trust the fact that well under 1% will ever be caught because the police either doesn't care either or just doesn't have the manpower to effectively enforce it.
- surfsvammel 6y ago
  In Sweden the fine is in proportion to your income. If you go too fast they take your drivers license. Repeat speeding too many times and they might also take your license.
Mordisquitos 6y ago
One could always establish a minimum-living income that was immune to fines based on ratio of income, or consider specific expenditures to be protected from the calculation (e.g. rent or cost of travel to work). However, I can see how that could eventually lead to the truism becoming "If the penalty for a crime is an income-ratio fine, then that law only exists for the middle class, and not for the lower or upper class" which would be... interesting.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  When it comes to civil litigation, the poor and insolvent are already often considered judgment-proof [1]. So you could say we already have a little of that “laws exist only for the middle class” scenario. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof
- ambentzen 6y ago
  Here in Denmark fines for drunk driving, driving while influenced by drugs, and driving while your license is suspended is income dependent. The exact fine is also dependent on your blood toxicity levels. And if you are under 18 or have a low income you can get half off the fine.
- jkaplowitz 6y ago
  I've often wondered whether penalties should target reputation more than they do, which would affect all classes of criminal including upper class. For example, as part of the sentence for violent crimes, the government could mail official press releases about the crime to all households in the area periodically for a certain amount of time after the conviction, or put up signs, at the criminal's expense (with a government cost-sharing for poorer criminals beyond whatever cost society would view appropriate to fine them - but mail and signage aren't that expensive). And companies convicted of a crime might have to fund government notifications of their crime to their customers and store/office visitors. Details might need tweaking, but a version of this could really work.
  - surfsvammel 6y ago
Chris2048 6y ago
Sure, but if you have nothing you can't make amends for damages either.
throwawayfire 6y ago
This is just saying that rich people are rich. Someone with obscene wealth can be imprisoned and still buy a yacht - even incarceration has a much greater impact on a poor person. As such, I'd rather fine them in proportion to their wealth.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  Why not both?
dmingod666 6y ago
Devils advocate: Someone with a yatch can have someone 'who barely makes ends meet' to do the dirty work, pay the now lowered fine. Payoff the poor guy and be done with it.

You might be getting closer but someone who is just barely making ends meet could be ruined by that, where someone with obscene wealth can lose even 10% and still buy a yacht minutes later.

luckylion 6y ago

Yeah, but he can only do that a few times. It's a much, much better system than what we have today for most things. Of course, it hinges on being able to tell how much income they have, which is (at least in Germany) the hard part, as the defendant is not required to help.

tpxl 6y ago
The tax authority generally has that data.
- luckylion 6y ago
  And that generally does not matter, as the DA/judge will estimate the income based on available information. They will usually _not_ involve the tax authority, won't check your bank account etc. If their estimate is too high, you can provide information showing your actual income. If it's too low (which it usually is, because they're conservative in those estimates), you smile and walk out, having saved (a lot of) money.

alpaca128 6y ago

In my homecountry someone gets hundreds of speeding tickets per year, always on the same road. Doesn't care. With a properly scaling fine they'll stop doing that quickly or lose out on more than just a little yacht. I'd say it's a pretty decent step, especially when combined with confiscation of the vehicle if it's a repeat offender or a severe case. As you said it may not be perfect...but I'd rather see that than some careless people risking lives of others just because a speeding ticket is small change for them.

rebuilder 6y ago
Hows this: get three speeding tickets, get your license suspended.
- alpaca128 6y ago
  Well so what, then they'll drive without a license. As long as the punishment isn't sufficient to make the person care enough you will only nudge the threshold a bit under which people actually feel it. Edit: Same with using the phone while driving. It's one of the biggest contributing factors to road accidents, yet here the fine for doing it is barely above the price for a decent headset. So most just don't care and trust the fact that well under 1% will ever be caught because the police either doesn't care either or just doesn't have the manpower to effectively enforce it.
surfsvammel 6y ago
In Sweden the fine is in proportion to your income. If you go too fast they take your drivers license. Repeat speeding too many times and they might also take your license.

Mordisquitos 6y ago

One could always establish a minimum-living income that was immune to fines based on ratio of income, or consider specific expenditures to be protected from the calculation (e.g. rent or cost of travel to work). However, I can see how that could eventually lead to the truism becoming "If the penalty for a crime is an income-ratio fine, then that law only exists for the middle class, and not for the lower or upper class" which would be... interesting.

ryandrake 6y ago
When it comes to civil litigation, the poor and insolvent are already often considered judgment-proof [1]. So you could say we already have a little of that “laws exist only for the middle class” scenario. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_proof
ambentzen 6y ago
Here in Denmark fines for drunk driving, driving while influenced by drugs, and driving while your license is suspended is income dependent. The exact fine is also dependent on your blood toxicity levels. And if you are under 18 or have a low income you can get half off the fine.
jkaplowitz 6y ago
I've often wondered whether penalties should target reputation more than they do, which would affect all classes of criminal including upper class. For example, as part of the sentence for violent crimes, the government could mail official press releases about the crime to all households in the area periodically for a certain amount of time after the conviction, or put up signs, at the criminal's expense (with a government cost-sharing for poorer criminals beyond whatever cost society would view appropriate to fine them - but mail and signage aren't that expensive). And companies convicted of a crime might have to fund government notifications of their crime to their customers and store/office visitors. Details might need tweaking, but a version of this could really work.
- surfsvammel 6y ago

Chris2048 6y ago

Sure, but if you have nothing you can't make amends for damages either.

throwawayfire 6y ago

This is just saying that rich people are rich. Someone with obscene wealth can be imprisoned and still buy a yacht - even incarceration has a much greater impact on a poor person. As such, I'd rather fine them in proportion to their wealth.

Larrikin 6y ago
Why not both?

dmingod666 6y ago

Devils advocate: Someone with a yatch can have someone 'who barely makes ends meet' to do the dirty work, pay the now lowered fine. Payoff the poor guy and be done with it.