4 ms·

One way to get what you're asking for is to do a conversion (or pay someone else to do it, or buy one that someone is selling). I'm in the middle of converting

by elihu 6y ago

One way to get what you're asking for is to do a conversion (or pay someone else to do it, or buy one that someone is selling). I'm in the middle of converting a Mazda RX-8. Just got the motor/clutch/transmission assembly (mostly) in place last weekend. It's kind of fun, but it's also a lot of work. It seems like a tremendously inefficient way to get the car I want: electric, no phone-home or over-the-air update capability, ability to control how everything works, easy to fix, manual transmission, modern safety features. I thought about buying a Model 3, but decided it was a lot of money for something that wasn't quite what I want. 200+ mile range would have been nice though; it's hard to get that in a conversion without making it unreasonably heavy.

astrange 6y ago
Why do you want an electric car with a transmission? It doesn't have an engine in the first place.
- elihu 6y ago
  Partly because shifting gears is fun. Partly because you can get more usable power out of the motor with a transmission. It's a bit of a trade-off. To use Tesla as an example, they take the approach of just putting a massively overpowered motor in each car so that they can overcome the lack of a low gear. That works fine, but the kind of parts you need in that sort of system are expensive. Not just the motor, but the motor controller and the batteries have to handle that much power. A different approach is to just have a normally-sized motor and an ability to shift gears. It should make for a lighter, more efficient car. (Though you also lose some efficiency in the gearbox.) The conversion I'm doing has a 120 horsepower motor, and it's going into a car that's about 3,000 pounds. I won't win any 0-60 races with a Model S, but it'll probably handle corners better and generally be more fun to drive, not to mention be about 1500 to 2000 pounds lighter. I'm willing to concede that wanting an EV with a stickshift may be an unpopular opinion, but it's hard to know if there's a market for that kind of thing until someone starts manufacturing it. (And I don't mean the Taycan, I mean something that some ordinary middle-class person might buy.) It seems kind of a shame that we have all these legacy car companies that know how to build transmissions, but none of them seem interested in using that as an advantage they have over Tesla for that part of the market that want an electric car but would rather drive a manual transmission.
  - natch 6y ago
    I suppose back in the day there were those who missed the buggy whip.
  - natch 6y ago
    >it'll probably handle corners better and generally be more fun to drive Sounds like a very educational project. I wouldn't be so quick to just brush off Tesla engineering as having bad tradeoffs, or make assumptions about the fun of cornering, but I'm sure the project will be an eye opener and maybe will lead you to test drive an M3P sometime. Definitely it's hard to beat an RX8 with cornering but that's before you load it down with batteries. Edit: I had some doubts about your weight claims but I wasn't thinking about the fact that you are losing the engine weight, which puts you pretty far ahead! Sounds like a cool project.
    - elihu 6y ago
      I don't think Tesla's engineering tradeoffs are bad, I just think that they result in a car that's different than my notion of an ideal car. It's a preference thing more than anything else. I did actually consider buying a Model 3, and even put down a thousand dollars to preorder back when it was announced. I test drove a dual-motor version (I would have gotten the single-motor version, but it's what they had). The acceleration is fun. Otherwise it seemed like a solidly built yet kind of generic car. In the end, the main things that kept me from buying it were Tesla's secretive nature when it comes to service information and the prospect of some minor component failing and bricking the car (like that flash chip soldered to a giant motherboard that had issues in early models) after the warranty expires, and the price being a bit more than I cared to spend on a car. Awhile later a friend showed off a Ford Ranger pickup truck he'd converted with an electric motor and I thought: hmm, this isn't actually as expensive or difficult as I thought, maybe I should do a conversion... The weight breakdown is something like this: the RX-8 is about 3,000 pounds stock. The rotary engine is about 300 pounds with all its accessories attached. The dual-shaft version of the Netgain Hyper9 AC motor I'm using is 130 pounds. The exhaust system is maybe a hundred pounds or so removed. The gas tank is another hundred pounds or so (when full). I'm adding about 450 pounds of lithium iron phosphate batteries, which gets me about 27kwh and maybe 100 miles of range if I'm lucky. (Used Tesla cells have a lot better energy density and are actually reasonably priced, but they wouldn't have fit very well in the places I wanted to put them. They're also a bit more dangerous than LFP cells and require liquid cooling.) I'm also adding in some weight for battery boxes and the motor mount and motor/transmission adapter. In the end I figure the car'll be about 200 pounds heavier or so, and most of that weight is very close to the ground.

by elihu 6y ago

astrange 6y ago

Why do you want an electric car with a transmission? It doesn't have an engine in the first place.

elihu 6y ago
Partly because shifting gears is fun. Partly because you can get more usable power out of the motor with a transmission. It's a bit of a trade-off. To use Tesla as an example, they take the approach of just putting a massively overpowered motor in each car so that they can overcome the lack of a low gear. That works fine, but the kind of parts you need in that sort of system are expensive. Not just the motor, but the motor controller and the batteries have to handle that much power. A different approach is to just have a normally-sized motor and an ability to shift gears. It should make for a lighter, more efficient car. (Though you also lose some efficiency in the gearbox.) The conversion I'm doing has a 120 horsepower motor, and it's going into a car that's about 3,000 pounds. I won't win any 0-60 races with a Model S, but it'll probably handle corners better and generally be more fun to drive, not to mention be about 1500 to 2000 pounds lighter. I'm willing to concede that wanting an EV with a stickshift may be an unpopular opinion, but it's hard to know if there's a market for that kind of thing until someone starts manufacturing it. (And I don't mean the Taycan, I mean something that some ordinary middle-class person might buy.) It seems kind of a shame that we have all these legacy car companies that know how to build transmissions, but none of them seem interested in using that as an advantage they have over Tesla for that part of the market that want an electric car but would rather drive a manual transmission.
- natch 6y ago
  I suppose back in the day there were those who missed the buggy whip.
- natch 6y ago
  >it'll probably handle corners better and generally be more fun to drive Sounds like a very educational project. I wouldn't be so quick to just brush off Tesla engineering as having bad tradeoffs, or make assumptions about the fun of cornering, but I'm sure the project will be an eye opener and maybe will lead you to test drive an M3P sometime. Definitely it's hard to beat an RX8 with cornering but that's before you load it down with batteries. Edit: I had some doubts about your weight claims but I wasn't thinking about the fact that you are losing the engine weight, which puts you pretty far ahead! Sounds like a cool project.
  - elihu 6y ago
    I don't think Tesla's engineering tradeoffs are bad, I just think that they result in a car that's different than my notion of an ideal car. It's a preference thing more than anything else. I did actually consider buying a Model 3, and even put down a thousand dollars to preorder back when it was announced. I test drove a dual-motor version (I would have gotten the single-motor version, but it's what they had). The acceleration is fun. Otherwise it seemed like a solidly built yet kind of generic car. In the end, the main things that kept me from buying it were Tesla's secretive nature when it comes to service information and the prospect of some minor component failing and bricking the car (like that flash chip soldered to a giant motherboard that had issues in early models) after the warranty expires, and the price being a bit more than I cared to spend on a car. Awhile later a friend showed off a Ford Ranger pickup truck he'd converted with an electric motor and I thought: hmm, this isn't actually as expensive or difficult as I thought, maybe I should do a conversion... The weight breakdown is something like this: the RX-8 is about 3,000 pounds stock. The rotary engine is about 300 pounds with all its accessories attached. The dual-shaft version of the Netgain Hyper9 AC motor I'm using is 130 pounds. The exhaust system is maybe a hundred pounds or so removed. The gas tank is another hundred pounds or so (when full). I'm adding about 450 pounds of lithium iron phosphate batteries, which gets me about 27kwh and maybe 100 miles of range if I'm lucky. (Used Tesla cells have a lot better energy density and are actually reasonably priced, but they wouldn't have fit very well in the places I wanted to put them. They're also a bit more dangerous than LFP cells and require liquid cooling.) I'm also adding in some weight for battery boxes and the motor mount and motor/transmission adapter. In the end I figure the car'll be about 200 pounds heavier or so, and most of that weight is very close to the ground.