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Let me come at it this way. You're hyping up our court system and constitution, freedom, all of that. Yet we imprison Americans at a much higher rate than Chi

Let me come at it this way. You're hyping up our court system and constitution, freedom, all of that. Yet we imprison Americans at a much higher rate than Chinese imprison their own. And that's before I even get into how we treat foreigners. So how much are all those great rhetorical adjectives worth when the rubber hits the road?

throwaway894345 6y ago
The “constitution” isn’t an adjective, and I didn’t mention “freedom”. The US incarceration rates are suboptimal, but China is operating actual concentration camps and sterilizing women based on their ethnicity. In 2020 the US had a record year with respect to brutality against journalists and it still would have been the best year China has had in at least the last 70 years. China still practices slavery in all but name. 60 years ago the CCP was waging genocide against its own people. If “corruption” feels too abstract for you, hopefully those things can provide some context about “where the rubber meets the road”. If you still think these things are on the same level as the US’s problems, we aren’t going to be able to have a productive debate.
- deleted 6y ago
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- refenestrator 6y ago
  So, just to pick one of your accusations there -- forced sterilization in China is a global policy if you have too many kids. It's not ethnically targeted, and until recently, minority populations were allowed to have more kids than Han Chinese. This is easily verifiable if you talk to anyone from China. Too many kids, you get sterilized, them's the rules (unless you're rich/connected, of course). So why do our media always report cases involving minorities out of context, creating unfortunate assumptions? Who benefits from that? You'd think the free press would surface the most accurate story, right? Just like the awesome judiciary shouldn't lead to world-leading incarceration rates. This set of gaps is what I'm talking about, not China's sins or virtues.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    > It's not ethnically targeted Citation needed. > This is easily verifiable if you talk to anyone from China. Is it conceivable that China is not entirely honest with its citizens about its various atrocities? If this seems far-fetched, perhaps we could examine the CCP's track record of disinformation, misinformation, and censorship campaigns against its own populace. > Mass Birth-Prevention Strategy. China has simultaneously pursued a dual systematic strategy of forcibly sterilizing Uyghur women of childbearing age and interning Uyghur men of child-bearing years, preventing the regenerative capacity of the group and evincing an intent to biologically destroy the group as such. According to Government statistics and directives, including to “carry out family planning sterilization,” “lower fertility levels,” and ”leave no blind spots,” China is carrying out a well-documented, State-funded birth-prevention campaign targeting women of childbearing age in Uyghur-concentrated areas with mass forced sterilization, abortions, and IUD placements. China explicitly admits the purpose of these campaigns is to ensure that Uyghur women are “no longer baby-making machines.” - https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3.pdf https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Brea... Perhaps "the free press" who are largely citing reports by experts such as the one above, are in fact more accurate than Chinese state propaganda? > Just like the awesome judiciary shouldn't lead to world-leading incarceration rates. You're deflecting again.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - refenestrator 6y ago
      Asking a citation for how the one-child (now two child) policy has worked for the last 40 years is pretty telling. And as for the "New Lines Institute".. whew, I sure am glad we have experts rather than security state propaganda. We are so fortunate over here.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        > Asking a citation for how the one-child (now two child) policy has worked for the last 40 years is pretty telling. Come now, you're being willfully obtuse. Clearly I was asking for a citation about your claim that it's not ethnically motivated beyond "ask any Chinese citizen". > I sure am glad we have experts rather than security state propaganda. Well, you don't trust the media, and you don't trust independent researchers, but you totally trust the Chinese government, so I don't know how we're going to make progress. Seems like we should just agree to disagree. (More “propaganda” from my HN feed: a journalist fleeing China for covering State treatment of Uighurs: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56586655 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56586655)

throwaway894345 6y ago

The “constitution” isn’t an adjective, and I didn’t mention “freedom”. The US incarceration rates are suboptimal, but China is operating actual concentration camps and sterilizing women based on their ethnicity. In 2020 the US had a record year with respect to brutality against journalists and it still would have been the best year China has had in at least the last 70 years. China still practices slavery in all but name. 60 years ago the CCP was waging genocide against its own people. If “corruption” feels too abstract for you, hopefully those things can provide some context about “where the rubber meets the road”. If you still think these things are on the same level as the US’s problems, we aren’t going to be able to have a productive debate.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
refenestrator 6y ago
So, just to pick one of your accusations there -- forced sterilization in China is a global policy if you have too many kids. It's not ethnically targeted, and until recently, minority populations were allowed to have more kids than Han Chinese. This is easily verifiable if you talk to anyone from China. Too many kids, you get sterilized, them's the rules (unless you're rich/connected, of course). So why do our media always report cases involving minorities out of context, creating unfortunate assumptions? Who benefits from that? You'd think the free press would surface the most accurate story, right? Just like the awesome judiciary shouldn't lead to world-leading incarceration rates. This set of gaps is what I'm talking about, not China's sins or virtues.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  > It's not ethnically targeted Citation needed. > This is easily verifiable if you talk to anyone from China. Is it conceivable that China is not entirely honest with its citizens about its various atrocities? If this seems far-fetched, perhaps we could examine the CCP's track record of disinformation, misinformation, and censorship campaigns against its own populace. > Mass Birth-Prevention Strategy. China has simultaneously pursued a dual systematic strategy of forcibly sterilizing Uyghur women of childbearing age and interning Uyghur men of child-bearing years, preventing the regenerative capacity of the group and evincing an intent to biologically destroy the group as such. According to Government statistics and directives, including to “carry out family planning sterilization,” “lower fertility levels,” and ”leave no blind spots,” China is carrying out a well-documented, State-funded birth-prevention campaign targeting women of childbearing age in Uyghur-concentrated areas with mass forced sterilization, abortions, and IUD placements. China explicitly admits the purpose of these campaigns is to ensure that Uyghur women are “no longer baby-making machines.” - https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3.pdf https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Brea... Perhaps "the free press" who are largely citing reports by experts such as the one above, are in fact more accurate than Chinese state propaganda? > Just like the awesome judiciary shouldn't lead to world-leading incarceration rates. You're deflecting again.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - refenestrator 6y ago
    Asking a citation for how the one-child (now two child) policy has worked for the last 40 years is pretty telling. And as for the "New Lines Institute".. whew, I sure am glad we have experts rather than security state propaganda. We are so fortunate over here.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      > Asking a citation for how the one-child (now two child) policy has worked for the last 40 years is pretty telling. Come now, you're being willfully obtuse. Clearly I was asking for a citation about your claim that it's not ethnically motivated beyond "ask any Chinese citizen". > I sure am glad we have experts rather than security state propaganda. Well, you don't trust the media, and you don't trust independent researchers, but you totally trust the Chinese government, so I don't know how we're going to make progress. Seems like we should just agree to disagree. (More “propaganda” from my HN feed: a journalist fleeing China for covering State treatment of Uighurs: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56586655 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56586655)