4 ms·

Keeping politics out of sports... That is, we do that after we do our little patriotic opening song, then we leave the politics out, right?

axguscbklp 6y ago
Throw the patriotic and military-worshipping stuff out too. It annoys me as much as the "social justice" stuff annoys me. Perhaps more. I'm in principle opposed to the patriotic and military stuff, although I'd probably make an exception if the country was actually being militarily attacked for some reason other than because of blowback for its meddling overseas. I could imagine supporting some social justice messaging in sports, I just don't like it when the messaging is based on highly questionable arguments but promoted as obvious truth. Most BLM-type messaging falls into that category for me. The theory that minorities are disproportionately shot by police started to seem questionable to me once I corrected for things like police encounter rates and homicide rates. I should emphasize, questionable - I'm not saying the theory is false, just that it needs to be investigated further as far as I'm concerned.
- blacktriangle 6y ago
  It's okay, you can say the narrative is false, the data supports you.
  - axguscbklp 6y ago
    I'm not trying to conceal my opinions though, I'm actually undecided on the matter.
- mindslight 6y ago
  > The theory that minorities are disproportionately shot by police started to seem questionable to me once I corrected for things like police encounter rates and homicide rates You don't have to fully subscribe to the intrinsically-racist Black Lives Matter narrative to agree that unaccountable police are a major problem regardless of race. And IMO unaccountable police is a more fundamental issue than the newly-stoked racism.
  - axguscbklp 6y ago
    I think that unaccountable police are a big problem, but I feel that I cannot support the BLM narrative even though that narrative might end up making police more accountable. For one thing, it disgusts me when I see this narrative pushed dogmatically even though it is far from clear that it accurately describes reality - and especially, it disgusts me when I see people try to make it taboo to question the narrative. I view that level of thought policing as a real danger - while perhaps it does not endanger people's lives, it does help to turn society into a place that is unfit for free-thinking people to live in. For another, dogmatic belief in the BLM narrative has led to actual violence.
    - mindslight 6y ago
      Every political movement goes sideways when it gains mass popularity. I don't know if this is because the successful narratives tend to enrich some entrenched interest, psychopaths rise to the top, negative-sum games have popular appeal, the average person isn't smart enough to fit nuanced opinions in their head, humans are herd animals, or some mix of all of these. But whatever it is, whenever any grassroots movement gains the primetime spotlight, it invariably finds the wrong answer and runs with it. Hope and Change turned into justifying drone strikes and persecuting Snowden. The Tea Party turned into supporting the most despotic anti-American president in recent history. The recent Democratic mandate is turning into more bullshit "gun control" rather than staying focused on real hardships caused by several decades of economic destruction. The Libertarian party is teetering at the edge of cryptofascism, just waiting for a hint of power (said as a libertarian). Trying to argue nuance with any supporters will get you labeled as an other and summarily rejected. Even right here my comment was downvoted for what? Pointing out that Black Lives Matter is intrinsically racist? It's right in the name! Perhaps some of that racism is needed for motivation, but pointing it out runs up against the cognitive dissonance of "racism" being unequivocally bad. Seemingly the best you can do is have such discussions with friends who won't immediately write you off, although you'll often run into the same roadblock there. My own take on BLM is that it's not meant for me, and that's fine. I wish them well and hope they don't get too derailed by self-defeating means.
blacktriangle 6y ago
If you think that the anthem is political, then I can't help you. The point of the anthem, like sports, is to remind us of a shared nation we all belong to and are free to disagree with each other within.
- axguscbklp 6y ago
  I don't watch sports to be reminded of a shared nation that we all belong to. Yes, the anthem is political. Not just in the sense that "everything is political", but rather more than that.
- BaseS4 6y ago
  Shared nations are racist. We must bring back segregation to prove how anti-racist we are.

axguscbklp 6y ago

Throw the patriotic and military-worshipping stuff out too. It annoys me as much as the "social justice" stuff annoys me. Perhaps more. I'm in principle opposed to the patriotic and military stuff, although I'd probably make an exception if the country was actually being militarily attacked for some reason other than because of blowback for its meddling overseas. I could imagine supporting some social justice messaging in sports, I just don't like it when the messaging is based on highly questionable arguments but promoted as obvious truth. Most BLM-type messaging falls into that category for me. The theory that minorities are disproportionately shot by police started to seem questionable to me once I corrected for things like police encounter rates and homicide rates. I should emphasize, questionable - I'm not saying the theory is false, just that it needs to be investigated further as far as I'm concerned.

blacktriangle 6y ago
It's okay, you can say the narrative is false, the data supports you.
- axguscbklp 6y ago
  I'm not trying to conceal my opinions though, I'm actually undecided on the matter.
mindslight 6y ago
> The theory that minorities are disproportionately shot by police started to seem questionable to me once I corrected for things like police encounter rates and homicide rates You don't have to fully subscribe to the intrinsically-racist Black Lives Matter narrative to agree that unaccountable police are a major problem regardless of race. And IMO unaccountable police is a more fundamental issue than the newly-stoked racism.
- axguscbklp 6y ago
  I think that unaccountable police are a big problem, but I feel that I cannot support the BLM narrative even though that narrative might end up making police more accountable. For one thing, it disgusts me when I see this narrative pushed dogmatically even though it is far from clear that it accurately describes reality - and especially, it disgusts me when I see people try to make it taboo to question the narrative. I view that level of thought policing as a real danger - while perhaps it does not endanger people's lives, it does help to turn society into a place that is unfit for free-thinking people to live in. For another, dogmatic belief in the BLM narrative has led to actual violence.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    Every political movement goes sideways when it gains mass popularity. I don't know if this is because the successful narratives tend to enrich some entrenched interest, psychopaths rise to the top, negative-sum games have popular appeal, the average person isn't smart enough to fit nuanced opinions in their head, humans are herd animals, or some mix of all of these. But whatever it is, whenever any grassroots movement gains the primetime spotlight, it invariably finds the wrong answer and runs with it. Hope and Change turned into justifying drone strikes and persecuting Snowden. The Tea Party turned into supporting the most despotic anti-American president in recent history. The recent Democratic mandate is turning into more bullshit "gun control" rather than staying focused on real hardships caused by several decades of economic destruction. The Libertarian party is teetering at the edge of cryptofascism, just waiting for a hint of power (said as a libertarian). Trying to argue nuance with any supporters will get you labeled as an other and summarily rejected. Even right here my comment was downvoted for what? Pointing out that Black Lives Matter is intrinsically racist? It's right in the name! Perhaps some of that racism is needed for motivation, but pointing it out runs up against the cognitive dissonance of "racism" being unequivocally bad. Seemingly the best you can do is have such discussions with friends who won't immediately write you off, although you'll often run into the same roadblock there. My own take on BLM is that it's not meant for me, and that's fine. I wish them well and hope they don't get too derailed by self-defeating means.

blacktriangle 6y ago

If you think that the anthem is political, then I can't help you. The point of the anthem, like sports, is to remind us of a shared nation we all belong to and are free to disagree with each other within.

axguscbklp 6y ago
I don't watch sports to be reminded of a shared nation that we all belong to. Yes, the anthem is political. Not just in the sense that "everything is political", but rather more than that.
BaseS4 6y ago
Shared nations are racist. We must bring back segregation to prove how anti-racist we are.