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Only a good union example will invalidate your argument, maybe check history and find such a good example then attempt to reformulate some valid hypothesis or t

Only a good union example will invalidate your argument, maybe check history and find such a good example then attempt to reformulate some valid hypothesis or try something not that easy to disprove. While you try to find some bad example of unions and show us how they ruined some companies consider that I will respond with similar examples where the CEO and the board did even worse stuff - so maybe we skip the examples comments and we can conclude that there can be bad unions and bad CEOs (or board/whatever), the main difference is that one group controls a lot of money and can create a lot of PR to present the other group as evil.

laurent92 6y ago
> check history Classic. But historically, advances in wages and advantages tightly follow the economic curve: Employers increase wages when skills and economic development gets better. Not correlated with unionization, even when the union is here when the paper is signed and brandish it as a success (looking at you, Congé Payés in France in 1936, many companies were already doing it when the union gathered with the bosses to say “We do it”).
- simion314 6y ago
  I think you were manipulated with some examples, so let me know such example that you are thinking of, also try to fit your view with my examples: "miners union demand pay on time and safer conditions", "actors union demand safety", "teacher union demands a raise equal with inflation" . Your view is that this groups should wait until the free market will solve their issue? Many people here are comparing their programming job with someone that works an unskilled low paying job, this people can't individually demand things like "hey, put it in my contract that you will allow me 2 minutes toilet breaks, not 1 like the others, I am a 10X worker see my CV on GitHub"
- dontreact 6y ago
  Wages have stagnated since sometime around unions started to lose power. Wage growth has certainly not kept up with GDP. And the decoupling of these two things happened around the time unions started to lose power.
- ric2b 6y ago
  > But historically, advances in wages and advantages tightly follow the economic curve: Employers increase wages when skills and economic development gets better. Except that hasn't been the case since the 70's
toast0 6y ago
> one group controls a lot of money and can create a lot of PR to present the other group as evil. CEOs also control a lot of money and create a lot of PR, so don't try to paint them as always the good guys.
- wizzwizz4 6y ago
  I'd be surprised if unions controlled as much money as CEOs; union reps aren't generally on rich lists.
  - smsm42 6y ago
    Check out the lists of top political donations some time - e.g. on https://www.opensecrets.org/ https://www.opensecrets.org/. Unions have tons of money, and they spend it lavishly on lobbying, political donations and PR.
  - sli 6y ago
    If they did, wouldn't the money be in the organization's control and not be the personal wealth of the rep?
  - salawat 6y ago
    Unions don't control as much money by definition. Any Union's coffers are pulled from dues coming out of the pay of the workers. While theoretically, a Union may make more than the employees of a particular Union workplace, it would be only because you took into account cash flow from other Union workplaces. Statistical multiplexing is the only thing that makes unions viable to my understanding, and I may be wrong on that, as warchests may be partitioned by workplace, I can't confirm whether or not that is the case. This is also one of the reasons why I'm not sold on the illegalization of secondary strikes. Labor should absolutely exploit network effects to make up for the fact that the capital class will pretty much by default.
robomartin 6y ago
> While you try to find some bad example of unions and show us how they ruined some companies I think your perspective does not match the reality of the last 50 years or so. We are not in the 1800's or early 1900's, when unions were super important in shaping our labor laws and actually helping workers. Nobody can deny that. Since then? To reuse a phrase: The huge sucking sound you've been hearing are jobs --union and otherwise-- going to China by the millions. Unions, and their aggressive anti-business stance in the US, have been a part of this exodus. I know people who forcefully retired from a number of union jobs as their unions decimated their respective industries and their jobs went to China. Sure, of course, reality isn't a single variable problem and we can't just blame unions for the erosion of our industrial base. There are many factors that led to this, including our incompetent politicians and their never ending quest for party power rather than what's good for the nation. Unions in the US have become distinctly different from their European counterparts. Our unions use the threat of destroying a business as a way to get what they want. European unions have somehow reached a balance where they understand protecting the business is just as important as protecting workers. It's a far more symbiotic relationship rather than a brutally adversarial one. No love lost of Amazon here. I just think it is important to understand history so we don't repeat our painfully-learned mistakes. The US and Europe are out of time. We can't make more mistakes. We have been helping China achieve the rank of second economy in the world for fifty years. How much more self-harm is enough? I desperately want to go back to having manufacturing in the US as an option. Today, that option does not exist but within very specific boundaries. Anything "union" is dead, whether they know it or not. Save this message and read it again in 10, 15 or 20 years.
- simion314 6y ago
  You remind me of indoctrinated religious people. A guy gets a rare birth defect and one day a doctor cures him, he thanks God for saving him but not blames God for giving him the birth defect from the beginning. Same in your case you blame the union concept for all the evil (ignore all the other possible causes why China economy is rising) but never credit unions with any good thing. Let's assume that the US people are special, they can't ever have a society like the rest of the world. How do you solve the issue where workers have to work in unsafe conditions, pee in bottles and other degrading stuff? Do you pass laws to forbid peeing in bottles? The anti-government guys will not let you pass such laws... do you make each worker negotiate how many minutes a year he can spend in toilet ? Do you solve it with Twitter and cancel culture or with God?

laurent92 6y ago

> check history Classic. But historically, advances in wages and advantages tightly follow the economic curve: Employers increase wages when skills and economic development gets better. Not correlated with unionization, even when the union is here when the paper is signed and brandish it as a success (looking at you, Congé Payés in France in 1936, many companies were already doing it when the union gathered with the bosses to say “We do it”).

simion314 6y ago
I think you were manipulated with some examples, so let me know such example that you are thinking of, also try to fit your view with my examples: "miners union demand pay on time and safer conditions", "actors union demand safety", "teacher union demands a raise equal with inflation" . Your view is that this groups should wait until the free market will solve their issue? Many people here are comparing their programming job with someone that works an unskilled low paying job, this people can't individually demand things like "hey, put it in my contract that you will allow me 2 minutes toilet breaks, not 1 like the others, I am a 10X worker see my CV on GitHub"
dontreact 6y ago
Wages have stagnated since sometime around unions started to lose power. Wage growth has certainly not kept up with GDP. And the decoupling of these two things happened around the time unions started to lose power.
ric2b 6y ago
> But historically, advances in wages and advantages tightly follow the economic curve: Employers increase wages when skills and economic development gets better. Except that hasn't been the case since the 70's

toast0 6y ago

> one group controls a lot of money and can create a lot of PR to present the other group as evil. CEOs also control a lot of money and create a lot of PR, so don't try to paint them as always the good guys.

wizzwizz4 6y ago
I'd be surprised if unions controlled as much money as CEOs; union reps aren't generally on rich lists.
- smsm42 6y ago
  Check out the lists of top political donations some time - e.g. on https://www.opensecrets.org/ https://www.opensecrets.org/. Unions have tons of money, and they spend it lavishly on lobbying, political donations and PR.
- sli 6y ago
  If they did, wouldn't the money be in the organization's control and not be the personal wealth of the rep?
- salawat 6y ago
  Unions don't control as much money by definition. Any Union's coffers are pulled from dues coming out of the pay of the workers. While theoretically, a Union may make more than the employees of a particular Union workplace, it would be only because you took into account cash flow from other Union workplaces. Statistical multiplexing is the only thing that makes unions viable to my understanding, and I may be wrong on that, as warchests may be partitioned by workplace, I can't confirm whether or not that is the case. This is also one of the reasons why I'm not sold on the illegalization of secondary strikes. Labor should absolutely exploit network effects to make up for the fact that the capital class will pretty much by default.

robomartin 6y ago

> While you try to find some bad example of unions and show us how they ruined some companies I think your perspective does not match the reality of the last 50 years or so. We are not in the 1800's or early 1900's, when unions were super important in shaping our labor laws and actually helping workers. Nobody can deny that. Since then? To reuse a phrase: The huge sucking sound you've been hearing are jobs --union and otherwise-- going to China by the millions. Unions, and their aggressive anti-business stance in the US, have been a part of this exodus. I know people who forcefully retired from a number of union jobs as their unions decimated their respective industries and their jobs went to China. Sure, of course, reality isn't a single variable problem and we can't just blame unions for the erosion of our industrial base. There are many factors that led to this, including our incompetent politicians and their never ending quest for party power rather than what's good for the nation. Unions in the US have become distinctly different from their European counterparts. Our unions use the threat of destroying a business as a way to get what they want. European unions have somehow reached a balance where they understand protecting the business is just as important as protecting workers. It's a far more symbiotic relationship rather than a brutally adversarial one. No love lost of Amazon here. I just think it is important to understand history so we don't repeat our painfully-learned mistakes. The US and Europe are out of time. We can't make more mistakes. We have been helping China achieve the rank of second economy in the world for fifty years. How much more self-harm is enough? I desperately want to go back to having manufacturing in the US as an option. Today, that option does not exist but within very specific boundaries. Anything "union" is dead, whether they know it or not. Save this message and read it again in 10, 15 or 20 years.

simion314 6y ago
You remind me of indoctrinated religious people. A guy gets a rare birth defect and one day a doctor cures him, he thanks God for saving him but not blames God for giving him the birth defect from the beginning. Same in your case you blame the union concept for all the evil (ignore all the other possible causes why China economy is rising) but never credit unions with any good thing. Let's assume that the US people are special, they can't ever have a society like the rest of the world. How do you solve the issue where workers have to work in unsafe conditions, pee in bottles and other degrading stuff? Do you pass laws to forbid peeing in bottles? The anti-government guys will not let you pass such laws... do you make each worker negotiate how many minutes a year he can spend in toilet ? Do you solve it with Twitter and cancel culture or with God?