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> the prisoner's dilemma variant here is the iterated one, and there are more than two players. The assumption there is that you're all guilty. I agree, when

> the prisoner's dilemma variant here is the iterated one, and there are more than two players. The assumption there is that you're all guilty. I agree, when you're all cheating, it's hard to safely get to a point you're not cheating and can inform on others, but the solution to that is simple, don't cheat in the first place. An actual rational actor would realize that cheating opens you up to this situation where you've exposed yourself to a prisoners dilemma that you can't easily extract yourself from, and all for the chance to just have the same advantage as everyone else. Not cheating in the first place and making sure all the cheaters are punished seems a far better strategy. That said, it's possible this was an emergent phenomenon, where none of them initially were sure the others were cheating, but felt they had to cheat themselves to compete, and by the time it's obvious they are all cheating, there's no chance for one of them to benefit by being clean and calling out all the others.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
I do think that these things are all mostly emergent - a competitor sacrifices a principle a little bit to get ahead, everyone else follows suit, thus enshrining it as a new normal. Rinse, repeat That said, I disagree with "the solution to that is simple, don't cheat in the first place", for the reasons I mentioned: if all your competitors suddenly start to cheat, telling on them only works if you can ensure they all get burned down to the ground as a result. If some survive, you'll now be competing with them as an actor nobody trusts, and nobody wants to deal with. If that's a realistic outcome, you may as well just quit.
- kbenson 6y ago
  > telling on them only works if you can ensure they all get burned down to the ground as a result. Isn't that assuming you have to out yourself to identify others? That seems like something a company could coordinate well such that there was little or no indication of where it came from (a source identifying one or two bad actors and calling for industry wide testing would serve their interests without specifically outing them). And I'm not sure why they need to get burned down to the ground. It's about removing the advantages they've gained through cheating, and possibly applying a social penalty if it was bad enough, not ensuring they are destroyed. > If some survive, you'll now be competing with them as an actor nobody trusts, and nobody wants to deal with. Eh, even if it did come out that your company was responsible for outing others, this is business where past behavior has less sway, and knowing the other party will follow the rules is hardly a disqualifying factor as long as you don't do something with them that isn't following the rules. It's not like competitors are commonly giving ammunition to each other with the understanding it won't be used. And if they aren't working with you because they can't without exposing more cheating... well then that's a problem they should be trying to fix already, given the new realities. I think in any well functioning market this all works out normally. The automotive market doesn't seem to be a well functioning one though.
- bluGill 6y ago
  I don't get it. If I'm competing with someone, and I tell on them for cheating while not cheating myself what do I lose if they don't get burned for it?

TeMPOraL 6y ago

I do think that these things are all mostly emergent - a competitor sacrifices a principle a little bit to get ahead, everyone else follows suit, thus enshrining it as a new normal. Rinse, repeat That said, I disagree with "the solution to that is simple, don't cheat in the first place", for the reasons I mentioned: if all your competitors suddenly start to cheat, telling on them only works if you can ensure they all get burned down to the ground as a result. If some survive, you'll now be competing with them as an actor nobody trusts, and nobody wants to deal with. If that's a realistic outcome, you may as well just quit.

kbenson 6y ago
> telling on them only works if you can ensure they all get burned down to the ground as a result. Isn't that assuming you have to out yourself to identify others? That seems like something a company could coordinate well such that there was little or no indication of where it came from (a source identifying one or two bad actors and calling for industry wide testing would serve their interests without specifically outing them). And I'm not sure why they need to get burned down to the ground. It's about removing the advantages they've gained through cheating, and possibly applying a social penalty if it was bad enough, not ensuring they are destroyed. > If some survive, you'll now be competing with them as an actor nobody trusts, and nobody wants to deal with. Eh, even if it did come out that your company was responsible for outing others, this is business where past behavior has less sway, and knowing the other party will follow the rules is hardly a disqualifying factor as long as you don't do something with them that isn't following the rules. It's not like competitors are commonly giving ammunition to each other with the understanding it won't be used. And if they aren't working with you because they can't without exposing more cheating... well then that's a problem they should be trying to fix already, given the new realities. I think in any well functioning market this all works out normally. The automotive market doesn't seem to be a well functioning one though.
bluGill 6y ago
I don't get it. If I'm competing with someone, and I tell on them for cheating while not cheating myself what do I lose if they don't get burned for it?