6 ms·

Isn't that because of forced conscription and most vets keep their rifles? So presumably they have both significant training and vetting? Meanwhile in the US an

Isn't that because of forced conscription and most vets keep their rifles? So presumably they have both significant training and vetting? Meanwhile in the US anyone over the age of 18 can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour. People always trot out this point about Switzerland but it's such a useless comparison and I think actively harms their argument rather than helps it.

floren 6y ago
Well, I'd sure hate if I was walking out with a low-powered rifle--I'd feel like I hadn't got my money's worth if the bullets just sorta dripped out the end of the barrel. So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Or does it come during their short military service? "19 year old Private Hans, we think you might murder someone in 20 years, we're banning you from ever owning a gun hereafter." If Switzerland has less murder, it's because people feel less inclined to murder there. Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone.
- omgwtfbbq 6y ago
  >So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Presumably people with mental illness or certain criminal convictions are excluded? >Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone. This is likely self selecting. If everyone in Switzerland serves then their average vet is essentially their average citizen, the murder rate for an Average American is probably low. The type of people who enlist in the US are not typically "average."
barbacoa 6y ago
>[Anyone] can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour I don't think people who believe this have ever actually been to a gun show. Anyone who commercially sells guns is required to have an federal firearms dealer's license (FFL), not having one will get you in big legal trouble with the ATF. If you have a table with 100s of guns for sale there is a 100% chance you are an FFL gun seller in which case you are required to do background checks on all gun purchases.
- omgwtfbbq 6y ago
  I have been to many and there are always people who are unlicensed walking the show advertising that they want to trade or sell their gun. This is literally the "Gun Show Loophole"
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Nobody wants to sell guns to bad people. This loophole wouldn't exist if the people that keep calling it a loophole would settle for a solution that can't be easily co-opted into a de-facto registry. Dropping the 4473 requirement and opening the NCIS check system to anyone is a potential compromise that gets thrown out often from the "it's not a loophole it's an exemption" side but it never goes anywhere.
    - omgwtfbbq 6y ago
      > a solution that can't be easily co-opted into a de-facto registry. Yeah it's called a background check.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        I can't tell if you're just ignorant or being disingenuous. When you buy a gun from an FFL they submit your ID (SSN, name, birth-date, etc) to the NCIS system that basically checks that you answered all the questions on the 4473 truthfully. Then the seller tells them what kind of gun you're buying (long gun vs handgun) and assuming it's all clear records the specific serial numbers on the 4473 which they then file and keep for 20+yr. So there exists a record of who every professionally manufactured gun was first sold to. Of course nobody would tolerate being subject to those record keeping requirements for private sales. But nobody wants to get the pigs knocking on their door asking who they sold a gun they recovered from a crime scene to so people want to be able to call up the NCIS system (without being a federally licensed dealer, which is an onerous process) and confirm that whoever they're about to sell a gun to in a Walmart parking lot isn't a prohibited person. Over the years there have been numerous proposals to open up the NCIS system. They've all included requirements about recording serial numbers and retaining records and are a comically bad deal for gun owners so of course it goes nowhere.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
You know how I know you've never worked with infantrymen, lol? A conscripted army by definition has lax standards of vetting and lesser standards of training (you're only holding on to your investment for a couple years). Russia has conscription (or recently did), it's not a strong indicator of anything. These are regular people. There's nothing magical about getting yelled at for 90 days that makes them less likely to solve problems with violence. People always trot out this point about military service but it's such a useless comparison and I think it actually harms their argument rather than helps it.
- omgwtfbbq 6y ago
  >You know how I know you've never worked with infantrymen, lol? Irrelevant but ok. >A conscripted army by definition has lax standards of vetting and lesser standards of training In Switzerland: "People determined unfit for service, where fitness is defined as "satisfying physically, intellectually and psychological requirements for military service or civil protection service and being capable of accomplishing these services without harming oneself or others", are exempted from service but pay a 3% additional annual income tax until the age of 37, unless they are affected by a disability. Almost 20% of all conscripts were found unfit for military or civilian service in 2008; the rate is generally higher in urban cantons such as Zurich and Geneva than in the rural ones" >There's nothing magical about getting yelled at for 90 days that makes them less likely to solve problems with violence You really think average Joe who walks into walmart and walks out with a rifle is going to be as responsible a gun owner as someone with military training? Also Basic in Switzerland is ~140 days for reference...
  - ryanlol 6y ago
    At least in Finland people aren’t really vetted. The “determined unfit for service” thing is more of an opt-out, nobody will force it upon you unless you’re obviously disabled. You have to go to the doctor and ask to be deemed unfit, you’d have to do something crazy to have that forced upon you against your will. I don’t think Swiss is any different.
    - 6y ago
ryanlol 6y ago
FWIW I don’t think you normally refer to forced conscripts as “vets” unless they’ve actually been in combat.
- omgwtfbbq 6y ago
  Semantics... In the US at least anyone who's spent time as a soldier, in combat or not, is generally called a "Vet." The US Veterans Affairs office for example serves all former soldiers regardless of combat experience.
  - ryanlol 6y ago
    Not at all semantics. In the US any kind of military service implies a decent chance of being sent to war, that’s certainly not the case in Switzerland. Conscription in Europe is more akin to a summer camp, you really can’t compare it to military service in the US.

floren 6y ago

Well, I'd sure hate if I was walking out with a low-powered rifle--I'd feel like I hadn't got my money's worth if the bullets just sorta dripped out the end of the barrel. So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Or does it come during their short military service? "19 year old Private Hans, we think you might murder someone in 20 years, we're banning you from ever owning a gun hereafter." If Switzerland has less murder, it's because people feel less inclined to murder there. Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone.

omgwtfbbq 6y ago
>So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Presumably people with mental illness or certain criminal convictions are excluded? >Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone. This is likely self selecting. If everyone in Switzerland serves then their average vet is essentially their average citizen, the murder rate for an Average American is probably low. The type of people who enlist in the US are not typically "average."

barbacoa 6y ago

>[Anyone] can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour I don't think people who believe this have ever actually been to a gun show. Anyone who commercially sells guns is required to have an federal firearms dealer's license (FFL), not having one will get you in big legal trouble with the ATF. If you have a table with 100s of guns for sale there is a 100% chance you are an FFL gun seller in which case you are required to do background checks on all gun purchases.

omgwtfbbq 6y ago
I have been to many and there are always people who are unlicensed walking the show advertising that they want to trade or sell their gun. This is literally the "Gun Show Loophole"
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Nobody wants to sell guns to bad people. This loophole wouldn't exist if the people that keep calling it a loophole would settle for a solution that can't be easily co-opted into a de-facto registry. Dropping the 4473 requirement and opening the NCIS check system to anyone is a potential compromise that gets thrown out often from the "it's not a loophole it's an exemption" side but it never goes anywhere.
  - omgwtfbbq 6y ago
    > a solution that can't be easily co-opted into a de-facto registry. Yeah it's called a background check.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      I can't tell if you're just ignorant or being disingenuous. When you buy a gun from an FFL they submit your ID (SSN, name, birth-date, etc) to the NCIS system that basically checks that you answered all the questions on the 4473 truthfully. Then the seller tells them what kind of gun you're buying (long gun vs handgun) and assuming it's all clear records the specific serial numbers on the 4473 which they then file and keep for 20+yr. So there exists a record of who every professionally manufactured gun was first sold to. Of course nobody would tolerate being subject to those record keeping requirements for private sales. But nobody wants to get the pigs knocking on their door asking who they sold a gun they recovered from a crime scene to so people want to be able to call up the NCIS system (without being a federally licensed dealer, which is an onerous process) and confirm that whoever they're about to sell a gun to in a Walmart parking lot isn't a prohibited person. Over the years there have been numerous proposals to open up the NCIS system. They've all included requirements about recording serial numbers and retaining records and are a comically bad deal for gun owners so of course it goes nowhere.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

You know how I know you've never worked with infantrymen, lol? A conscripted army by definition has lax standards of vetting and lesser standards of training (you're only holding on to your investment for a couple years). Russia has conscription (or recently did), it's not a strong indicator of anything. These are regular people. There's nothing magical about getting yelled at for 90 days that makes them less likely to solve problems with violence. People always trot out this point about military service but it's such a useless comparison and I think it actually harms their argument rather than helps it.

omgwtfbbq 6y ago
>You know how I know you've never worked with infantrymen, lol? Irrelevant but ok. >A conscripted army by definition has lax standards of vetting and lesser standards of training In Switzerland: "People determined unfit for service, where fitness is defined as "satisfying physically, intellectually and psychological requirements for military service or civil protection service and being capable of accomplishing these services without harming oneself or others", are exempted from service but pay a 3% additional annual income tax until the age of 37, unless they are affected by a disability. Almost 20% of all conscripts were found unfit for military or civilian service in 2008; the rate is generally higher in urban cantons such as Zurich and Geneva than in the rural ones" >There's nothing magical about getting yelled at for 90 days that makes them less likely to solve problems with violence You really think average Joe who walks into walmart and walks out with a rifle is going to be as responsible a gun owner as someone with military training? Also Basic in Switzerland is ~140 days for reference...
- ryanlol 6y ago
  At least in Finland people aren’t really vetted. The “determined unfit for service” thing is more of an opt-out, nobody will force it upon you unless you’re obviously disabled. You have to go to the doctor and ask to be deemed unfit, you’d have to do something crazy to have that forced upon you against your will. I don’t think Swiss is any different.
  - 6y ago

ryanlol 6y ago

FWIW I don’t think you normally refer to forced conscripts as “vets” unless they’ve actually been in combat.

omgwtfbbq 6y ago
Semantics... In the US at least anyone who's spent time as a soldier, in combat or not, is generally called a "Vet." The US Veterans Affairs office for example serves all former soldiers regardless of combat experience.
- ryanlol 6y ago
  Not at all semantics. In the US any kind of military service implies a decent chance of being sent to war, that’s certainly not the case in Switzerland. Conscription in Europe is more akin to a summer camp, you really can’t compare it to military service in the US.