6 ms·

Relevant Onion article, "‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens": https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na

by slacka 6y ago

Relevant Onion article, "‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens": https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527 https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na... The Onion has published the article 17 times:(

etangent 6y ago
Switzerland has 2 million privately owned guns per 8 million inhabitants, but AFAIK their murder rate is not stellar high.
- applecrazy 6y ago
  Does it have to do with proper gun control or better access to mental health services?
  - vmception 6y ago
    The Swiss own guns for opposite reasons that Americans do. They own them because they trust their government or if that's too strong of a word, they are content with their ability to defend Switzerland for the government. Instead of defending themselves from the government. (But that sentiment exists too)
    - floren 6y ago
      And you're saying that because Americans want to defend themselves from the government, that's why Americans kill each other so much? I don't see "Swiss trust their government" as a solid reason for their lower murder rate.
      - vmception 6y ago
        It's not the complete story, I'm not going to write a dissertation here. Just was aiming to show one stark contrast to show how broad the gun ownership reasoning can be, outside of American reasons.
      - sandworm101 6y ago
        The defense against government makes guns commonplace, availible for use in other types of violence. The link is more practical than ideological.
        floren 6y ago
        But this is all in the context of Switzerland, where guns are also commonplace and therefore available for use in other types of violence.
        sandworm101 6y ago
        Swiss guns stay at home as items for use in extrodinary circumstances. US culture sees guns as personal defense items to be carried during daily activities. So, in practice, they are much more availible for use.
    - Mordisquitos 6y ago
      And, to be more specific, gun-ownership culture in Switzerland has nothing to do with the idea of personal self-defence as it does in the USA. Rather, it is related to hunting and target-shooting sports.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        The majority of long guns in the US are pretty likely bought for hunting. There's a pretty loud home defense community, but it isn't that big. And of course most pistols are not purchased for hunting.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      US gun culture isnt just about defending one's self from the government. It gets darker than that. It is about retaining the ability to aggressively destroy and replace that government. Many gun nuts really do believe in revolution. Luckily they remain a minority, but they are out there.
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    Our murder rate isn't high because legal gun owners are out killing people. It's all gang-related. So to answer your question: none of the above. It's demographics.
    - daemoens 6y ago
      The majority of these prominent mass shootings we've seen so far have been using legal guns.
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        mass shootings are a very small fraction of gun homicides that receive disproportionate coverage. if mass shootings stopped overnight, you would barely notice a change in the US homicide rate.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... There's a lot of unrecorded relationships, but family and intimate partners make up a pretty big chunk of the homicides in the US.
      - jaywalk 6y ago
        That's a funny way of noting that Acquaintance, Stranger and Unknown make up nearly 80% of the homicides.
        maxerickson 6y ago
        20% is more accurately described as 'big chunk' than any argument you can make for 'all gang related'.
  - dobin 6y ago
    I think there are different reasons: - Mandatory military service makes people know how to use guns - People have mandatory health insurance and social security, means there is no need to shoot people for money - Less racist police, means minorities dont solve problems by themselves with violence - high minimum wage, so nobody has to starve - Gun owners do not use guns to defend against burglars, so burglars also dont have to use guns - Proper handling of drug addiction (including addicts) - better mental health because of mandatory holidays, parental leaves, and a lot of chocolate - Prostitution is legal, so no pimping
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      > People have mandatory health insurance and social security, means there is no need to shoot people for money Even European countries with a decent social safety net still have some drug addicts (mainly heroin) who are desperate for money to buy that expensive drug and will engage in petty crime to do so, e.g. pickpocketing, mugging, bicycle theft, theft of copper wiring, etc. (And yes, some states provide assistive infrastructure for addicts, but there are still demographics that avoid it and continue their addict to street drugs.) The fact that there is almost no shooting going on has more to do with legal and/or cultural pressures on guns than the existence of a welfare state making life OK for everyone.
      - dobin 6y ago
        There are few legal restrictions to buy a gun here. Fill out a form, send it to the police, they mail you the license, go buy some AK's. Petty crime yes, mostly bicycle theft, and some mugging
  - milkrocks 6y ago
    look in America who does the most shootings by race, remove those shootings and look how safe America would be if we removed blacks and hispanics.
    - tzs 6y ago
      Race correlates with lack of wealth and lack of opportunity in the US, and lack of wealth and lack of opportunity correlate with crime. You really have to take the race/wealth correlation into account if you want to try to make inferences from race-based crime statistics that are actually useful.
    - daemoens 6y ago
      Well thats pretty blatant
    - dang 6y ago
      We've banned this account. You can't do this here.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  That's only half the rate in the US (and going down), and Switzerland also has mandatory military service, strict vetting, and gun registries. Bringing in additional data points without important context tends to muddy rather than clarify difficult issues.
- omgwtfbbq 6y ago
  Isn't that because of forced conscription and most vets keep their rifles? So presumably they have both significant training and vetting? Meanwhile in the US anyone over the age of 18 can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour. People always trot out this point about Switzerland but it's such a useless comparison and I think actively harms their argument rather than helps it.
  - floren 6y ago
    Well, I'd sure hate if I was walking out with a low-powered rifle--I'd feel like I hadn't got my money's worth if the bullets just sorta dripped out the end of the barrel. So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Or does it come during their short military service? "19 year old Private Hans, we think you might murder someone in 20 years, we're banning you from ever owning a gun hereafter." If Switzerland has less murder, it's because people feel less inclined to murder there. Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone.
    - omgwtfbbq 6y ago
      >So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Presumably people with mental illness or certain criminal convictions are excluded? >Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone. This is likely self selecting. If everyone in Switzerland serves then their average vet is essentially their average citizen, the murder rate for an Average American is probably low. The type of people who enlist in the US are not typically "average."
  - barbacoa 6y ago
    >[Anyone] can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour I don't think people who believe this have ever actually been to a gun show. Anyone who commercially sells guns is required to have an federal firearms dealer's license (FFL), not having one will get you in big legal trouble with the ATF. If you have a table with 100s of guns for sale there is a 100% chance you are an FFL gun seller in which case you are required to do background checks on all gun purchases.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Canada too has many guns and a lower murder rate than the US. The difference is that in canada and norway people dont generally carry guns during non-gun activities. When people get angry their gun isnt on thier hip but back home in a safe. in the US, a handgun in a glovebox or purse "for personal defense" is a cultural norm.

by slacka 6y ago

etangent 6y ago

Switzerland has 2 million privately owned guns per 8 million inhabitants, but AFAIK their murder rate is not stellar high.

applecrazy 6y ago
Does it have to do with proper gun control or better access to mental health services?
- vmception 6y ago
  The Swiss own guns for opposite reasons that Americans do. They own them because they trust their government or if that's too strong of a word, they are content with their ability to defend Switzerland for the government. Instead of defending themselves from the government. (But that sentiment exists too)
  - floren 6y ago
    And you're saying that because Americans want to defend themselves from the government, that's why Americans kill each other so much? I don't see "Swiss trust their government" as a solid reason for their lower murder rate.
    - vmception 6y ago
      It's not the complete story, I'm not going to write a dissertation here. Just was aiming to show one stark contrast to show how broad the gun ownership reasoning can be, outside of American reasons.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      The defense against government makes guns commonplace, availible for use in other types of violence. The link is more practical than ideological.
      - floren 6y ago
        But this is all in the context of Switzerland, where guns are also commonplace and therefore available for use in other types of violence.
        sandworm101 6y ago
        Swiss guns stay at home as items for use in extrodinary circumstances. US culture sees guns as personal defense items to be carried during daily activities. So, in practice, they are much more availible for use.
  - Mordisquitos 6y ago
    And, to be more specific, gun-ownership culture in Switzerland has nothing to do with the idea of personal self-defence as it does in the USA. Rather, it is related to hunting and target-shooting sports.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      The majority of long guns in the US are pretty likely bought for hunting. There's a pretty loud home defense community, but it isn't that big. And of course most pistols are not purchased for hunting.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    US gun culture isnt just about defending one's self from the government. It gets darker than that. It is about retaining the ability to aggressively destroy and replace that government. Many gun nuts really do believe in revolution. Luckily they remain a minority, but they are out there.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  Our murder rate isn't high because legal gun owners are out killing people. It's all gang-related. So to answer your question: none of the above. It's demographics.
  - daemoens 6y ago
    The majority of these prominent mass shootings we've seen so far have been using legal guns.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      mass shootings are a very small fraction of gun homicides that receive disproportionate coverage. if mass shootings stopped overnight, you would barely notice a change in the US homicide rate.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-... There's a lot of unrecorded relationships, but family and intimate partners make up a pretty big chunk of the homicides in the US.
    - jaywalk 6y ago
      That's a funny way of noting that Acquaintance, Stranger and Unknown make up nearly 80% of the homicides.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        20% is more accurately described as 'big chunk' than any argument you can make for 'all gang related'.
- dobin 6y ago
  I think there are different reasons: - Mandatory military service makes people know how to use guns - People have mandatory health insurance and social security, means there is no need to shoot people for money - Less racist police, means minorities dont solve problems by themselves with violence - high minimum wage, so nobody has to starve - Gun owners do not use guns to defend against burglars, so burglars also dont have to use guns - Proper handling of drug addiction (including addicts) - better mental health because of mandatory holidays, parental leaves, and a lot of chocolate - Prostitution is legal, so no pimping
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > People have mandatory health insurance and social security, means there is no need to shoot people for money Even European countries with a decent social safety net still have some drug addicts (mainly heroin) who are desperate for money to buy that expensive drug and will engage in petty crime to do so, e.g. pickpocketing, mugging, bicycle theft, theft of copper wiring, etc. (And yes, some states provide assistive infrastructure for addicts, but there are still demographics that avoid it and continue their addict to street drugs.) The fact that there is almost no shooting going on has more to do with legal and/or cultural pressures on guns than the existence of a welfare state making life OK for everyone.
    - dobin 6y ago
      There are few legal restrictions to buy a gun here. Fill out a form, send it to the police, they mail you the license, go buy some AK's. Petty crime yes, mostly bicycle theft, and some mugging
- milkrocks 6y ago
  look in America who does the most shootings by race, remove those shootings and look how safe America would be if we removed blacks and hispanics.
  - tzs 6y ago
    Race correlates with lack of wealth and lack of opportunity in the US, and lack of wealth and lack of opportunity correlate with crime. You really have to take the race/wealth correlation into account if you want to try to make inferences from race-based crime statistics that are actually useful.
  - daemoens 6y ago
    Well thats pretty blatant
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account. You can't do this here.
anigbrowl 6y ago
That's only half the rate in the US (and going down), and Switzerland also has mandatory military service, strict vetting, and gun registries. Bringing in additional data points without important context tends to muddy rather than clarify difficult issues.
omgwtfbbq 6y ago
Isn't that because of forced conscription and most vets keep their rifles? So presumably they have both significant training and vetting? Meanwhile in the US anyone over the age of 18 can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour. People always trot out this point about Switzerland but it's such a useless comparison and I think actively harms their argument rather than helps it.
- floren 6y ago
  Well, I'd sure hate if I was walking out with a low-powered rifle--I'd feel like I hadn't got my money's worth if the bullets just sorta dripped out the end of the barrel. So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Or does it come during their short military service? "19 year old Private Hans, we think you might murder someone in 20 years, we're banning you from ever owning a gun hereafter." If Switzerland has less murder, it's because people feel less inclined to murder there. Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone.
  - omgwtfbbq 6y ago
    >So if they have forced conscription, where does the vetting come in? Do they exempt, not conscript, the people who look particularly killy? Presumably people with mental illness or certain criminal convictions are excluded? >Why that is may be up for debate, but I certainly don't think a couple years of conscripted service right out of high school plays a role--or else you'd never hear about American vets killing anyone. This is likely self selecting. If everyone in Switzerland serves then their average vet is essentially their average citizen, the murder rate for an Average American is probably low. The type of people who enlist in the US are not typically "average."
- barbacoa 6y ago
  >[Anyone] can walk into a gun show and walk out with a high powered rifle in under an hour I don't think people who believe this have ever actually been to a gun show. Anyone who commercially sells guns is required to have an federal firearms dealer's license (FFL), not having one will get you in big legal trouble with the ATF. If you have a table with 100s of guns for sale there is a 100% chance you are an FFL gun seller in which case you are required to do background checks on all gun purchases.
sandworm101 6y ago
Canada too has many guns and a lower murder rate than the US. The difference is that in canada and norway people dont generally carry guns during non-gun activities. When people get angry their gun isnt on thier hip but back home in a safe. in the US, a handgun in a glovebox or purse "for personal defense" is a cultural norm.