6 ms·

Does this mean they have shifted their focus to cheating on battery capacity?

by outside1234 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jandrese 6y ago
To do that all they have to do is advertise the Euro WLT ratings.
- mrlinx 6y ago
  WLTP?
- Laarlf 6y ago
  NEFZ was unrealistic so we better introduce WLTP, which is even more unrealistic. Cool.
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    According to Wikipedia ratings under WLTP are much lower than under NEDC so your comment doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Vehicles_Test_Procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Veh...
    - Laarlf 6y ago
      Remember how i said "unrealistic" and not "lower"? WLTP is a rather unrealistic way to determine fuel consumption or energy usage on cars. If you look at sites which collect fuel usage for cars you often times see fuel usages considerably higher than what WLTP defines. Especially if it's a PHEV since WLTP expects a full battery all the time. Under 2L/100km for a 2 ton SUV is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers on https://www.spritmonitor.de/ https://www.spritmonitor.de/ for example seem to allign more with EPA in my experience.
      - gsnedders 6y ago
        > Especially if it's a PHEV since WLTP expects a full battery all the time. Under 2L/100km for a 2 ton SUV is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers on https://www.spritmonitor.de/ https://www.spritmonitor.de/ for example seem to allign more with EPA in my experience. There's a question as to what you're trying to model; if you're looking at daily usage then relatively short distances from fully charged are probably relatively representative of a lot of usage (the mean and median distances driven on a daily basis are relatively short distances!). https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/0-All_manufactures/0-All_models.html?fueltype=6&sort=3&powerunit=2 https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/0-All_manufactures/0... shows that data is somewhat all over the place v. manufacturer data, with some being close and others very far away from it. In reality, I suspect what would be useful is to have a further cycle based on a 100km journey largely on a motorway, as a long-distance extra-urban cycle?
        Laarlf 6y ago
        Very good question: WLTP has just a number for you. PHEVs may not be a good idea depending on your driving style. There should be more discussion about what type of engine is the correct one for you before buying. Do you drive enough motorway regularly that a diesel would make sense? Do you drive shorter distances but you cannot charge? Can you charge but you sometimes need more range? Maybe even a PHEV diesel would make sense, but that is a type of vehicle that was rare and is now even rarer. Technology was improved a lot over the last decades. If you'd record the WLTP tests you could maybe build a system which would accurately calculate your fuel usage for your type of driving and define if a PHEV or a diesel would make any sense for you.
      - formerly_proven 6y ago
        So your criticism is actually in the context of ICE and PHEVs - I assumed you meant pure EVs since that what this thread seemed to be about, and for those autonomy numbers seem to be strictly lower, hence my confusion why WLTP would be more doctored in this regard than NECD.
        6y ago
DudeInBasement 6y ago
Only Clean Diesel's will get this joke
josefx 6y ago
Isn't that Teslas turf? Seems to be the only company that includes reserve / zero range remaining in its official EPA numbers.
cptskippy 6y ago
That doesn't really fit their mo. They'll probably cheat on efficiency.
- jonp888 6y ago
  Do you have any genuine insight into VW company culture, or are you just extrapolating from one scandal?
  - alariccole 6y ago
    Just one little old scandal, huh.
gaoshan 6y ago
From what I have seen VW had a sort of genuine reckoning with the whole diesel issue. They have reinvented themselves, shed cruft, cut all fuel vehicle development and completely devoted themselves to an electric future (vehicles, batteries, chargers). They have turned things around wholesale and are now producing amazing, relatively affordable electric vehicles (their new id.4 SUV will debut in the US for just a little more than a tricked out Honda CR-V, once you factor in the federal tax credit). I was excited by Tesla but they remained expensive. Now feel like VW will have a chance to bring electric vehicles to a much larger group of people... a group I fit into and I can't wait.
- milkytron 6y ago
  It's going to take a lot more than going completely EV for me to for me to believe they have changed. Of course they went to EVs, it's the market. Of course they changed course, they were dealing with one of their worst scandals of all time. Of course they say they've changed, but how can we really trust them anymore?
  - gaoshan 6y ago
    Given where they are today would they need to do to cause you to believe they have changed?
    - milkytron 6y ago
      If they ran a campaign of donating to environmental protection charities, carbon capture, or some other means of protecting the planet, with a value equal to that of the money of the revenue of their diesel cheating vehicles sales, I would say they have changed. Until then, I still think they are doing what they do for the sake of profit.
      - nebolo 6y ago
        If they did what you suggest, wouldn't you also conclude that they are doing it for the sake of (future) profit?
odiroot 6y ago
Or just conveniently try to escape their shady origins.
Laarlf 6y ago
Well to be honest the cheating was pretty much only done so the cars wouldn't be unbearably slow. And every other european car manufacturer basically did the same. Once the targets become impossible to reach for everyone, you start cheating.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  Yep, you have bureaucrats at the EPA pulling numbers out of their asses that become impossible to meet and still have a car that people would want or can afford. So they find a way to meet the "letter of the law" and pass the tests. Sort of like what CPAs do when they prepare your tax return.
- briffle 6y ago
  That isn't true. It was done so they didn't have to install NOx cleaning technologies. Modern US based diesels have SCR, and EGR systems that help remove NOx and particulates from the exhaust (or prevent it from forming). However, they add thousands to the cost and complexity.
  - Laarlf 6y ago
    SCR systems are very expensive in modern VWs as well. Especially to repair. With the additional pressure on the engine because of restrictive exhausts engines also don't last as long. EGR systems on diesels are known to gunk up. VW used SCR systems since 2009 if you didn't know.
Thaxll 6y ago
You get cheated every day by big corps and don't complain do you?
- outside1234 6y ago
  I think I'm complaining in my own way right now :)

Does this mean they have shifted their focus to cheating on battery capacity?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jandrese 6y ago

To do that all they have to do is advertise the Euro WLT ratings.

mrlinx 6y ago
WLTP?
Laarlf 6y ago
NEFZ was unrealistic so we better introduce WLTP, which is even more unrealistic. Cool.
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  According to Wikipedia ratings under WLTP are much lower than under NEDC so your comment doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Vehicles_Test_Procedure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Harmonised_Light_Veh...
  - Laarlf 6y ago
    Remember how i said "unrealistic" and not "lower"? WLTP is a rather unrealistic way to determine fuel consumption or energy usage on cars. If you look at sites which collect fuel usage for cars you often times see fuel usages considerably higher than what WLTP defines. Especially if it's a PHEV since WLTP expects a full battery all the time. Under 2L/100km for a 2 ton SUV is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers on https://www.spritmonitor.de/ https://www.spritmonitor.de/ for example seem to allign more with EPA in my experience.
    - gsnedders 6y ago
      > Especially if it's a PHEV since WLTP expects a full battery all the time. Under 2L/100km for a 2 ton SUV is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination. The numbers on https://www.spritmonitor.de/ https://www.spritmonitor.de/ for example seem to allign more with EPA in my experience. There's a question as to what you're trying to model; if you're looking at daily usage then relatively short distances from fully charged are probably relatively representative of a lot of usage (the mean and median distances driven on a daily basis are relatively short distances!). https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/0-All_manufactures/0-All_models.html?fueltype=6&sort=3&powerunit=2 https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/0-All_manufactures/0... shows that data is somewhat all over the place v. manufacturer data, with some being close and others very far away from it. In reality, I suspect what would be useful is to have a further cycle based on a 100km journey largely on a motorway, as a long-distance extra-urban cycle?
      - Laarlf 6y ago
        Very good question: WLTP has just a number for you. PHEVs may not be a good idea depending on your driving style. There should be more discussion about what type of engine is the correct one for you before buying. Do you drive enough motorway regularly that a diesel would make sense? Do you drive shorter distances but you cannot charge? Can you charge but you sometimes need more range? Maybe even a PHEV diesel would make sense, but that is a type of vehicle that was rare and is now even rarer. Technology was improved a lot over the last decades. If you'd record the WLTP tests you could maybe build a system which would accurately calculate your fuel usage for your type of driving and define if a PHEV or a diesel would make any sense for you.
    - formerly_proven 6y ago
      So your criticism is actually in the context of ICE and PHEVs - I assumed you meant pure EVs since that what this thread seemed to be about, and for those autonomy numbers seem to be strictly lower, hence my confusion why WLTP would be more doctored in this regard than NECD.
      - 6y ago

DudeInBasement 6y ago

Only Clean Diesel's will get this joke

josefx 6y ago

Isn't that Teslas turf? Seems to be the only company that includes reserve / zero range remaining in its official EPA numbers.

cptskippy 6y ago

That doesn't really fit their mo. They'll probably cheat on efficiency.

jonp888 6y ago
Do you have any genuine insight into VW company culture, or are you just extrapolating from one scandal?
- alariccole 6y ago
  Just one little old scandal, huh.

gaoshan 6y ago

From what I have seen VW had a sort of genuine reckoning with the whole diesel issue. They have reinvented themselves, shed cruft, cut all fuel vehicle development and completely devoted themselves to an electric future (vehicles, batteries, chargers). They have turned things around wholesale and are now producing amazing, relatively affordable electric vehicles (their new id.4 SUV will debut in the US for just a little more than a tricked out Honda CR-V, once you factor in the federal tax credit). I was excited by Tesla but they remained expensive. Now feel like VW will have a chance to bring electric vehicles to a much larger group of people... a group I fit into and I can't wait.

milkytron 6y ago
It's going to take a lot more than going completely EV for me to for me to believe they have changed. Of course they went to EVs, it's the market. Of course they changed course, they were dealing with one of their worst scandals of all time. Of course they say they've changed, but how can we really trust them anymore?
- gaoshan 6y ago
  Given where they are today would they need to do to cause you to believe they have changed?
  - milkytron 6y ago
    If they ran a campaign of donating to environmental protection charities, carbon capture, or some other means of protecting the planet, with a value equal to that of the money of the revenue of their diesel cheating vehicles sales, I would say they have changed. Until then, I still think they are doing what they do for the sake of profit.
    - nebolo 6y ago
      If they did what you suggest, wouldn't you also conclude that they are doing it for the sake of (future) profit?

odiroot 6y ago

Or just conveniently try to escape their shady origins.

Laarlf 6y ago

Well to be honest the cheating was pretty much only done so the cars wouldn't be unbearably slow. And every other european car manufacturer basically did the same. Once the targets become impossible to reach for everyone, you start cheating.

throwawayboise 6y ago
Yep, you have bureaucrats at the EPA pulling numbers out of their asses that become impossible to meet and still have a car that people would want or can afford. So they find a way to meet the "letter of the law" and pass the tests. Sort of like what CPAs do when they prepare your tax return.
briffle 6y ago
That isn't true. It was done so they didn't have to install NOx cleaning technologies. Modern US based diesels have SCR, and EGR systems that help remove NOx and particulates from the exhaust (or prevent it from forming). However, they add thousands to the cost and complexity.
- Laarlf 6y ago
  SCR systems are very expensive in modern VWs as well. Especially to repair. With the additional pressure on the engine because of restrictive exhausts engines also don't last as long. EGR systems on diesels are known to gunk up. VW used SCR systems since 2009 if you didn't know.

Thaxll 6y ago

You get cheated every day by big corps and don't complain do you?

outside1234 6y ago
I think I'm complaining in my own way right now :)