3 ms·

I still don't understand why, for projects and similar topics-based discussion, we don't use NNTP instead of Email. Email is good for addressing specific people

by rakoo 6y ago

I still don't understand why, for projects and similar topics-based discussion, we don't use NNTP instead of Email. Email is good for addressing specific people only, and you're supposed to have been part of the conversation since the beginning so it does apply to personal correspondence but it scales horribly bad for groups of people: - there is no included history. You need to manually download hand-crafted archives from a bespoke endpoint but then you need to import it all. If you want to quickly read some old message there needs to be a relay to a public inbox type of thing which is a hack - mailing lists software exist but they are another hack. There is no standard for subscribing or unsubscribing - projects often have multiple lists anyway so they need to install them all All of these issues are solved with a network of NNTP servers, and even more: automatic backup of posts because that's how NNTP works, messages are shared accross the network so every message has a specific URI (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5538 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5538) and can be addressed directly and retrieved on-the-fly if needed

progval 6y ago
Not disagreeing with your overall point, but: > - mailing lists software exist but they are another hack. There is no standard for subscribing or unsubscribing There is a standard for unsubscribing: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058 And for subscribing, you can often open a mailto: link.
gkya 6y ago
No "good" NNTP clients, maybe besides Gnus and slrn, which are rather obscure. Gmane was relatively popular, and it was great but went down for a long time, which probably further obscured NNTP. IDK if everyone who used to use it is aware that it's up again, now at http://gmane.io/ http://gmane.io/
- leephillips 6y ago
  Those are both definitely good clients. And the idea to use NNTP is good, too, but has almost no chance of taking off, for social reasons.
- arunc 6y ago
  DFeed is the best NNTP clientI have come across https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed
- u801e 6y ago
  > No "good" NNTP clients Thunderbird works on most platforms. > Gmane was relatively popular, and it was great but went down for a long time Some mailing lists are now archived using public inbox[1]. There are several ways to access it including via NNTP. [1] https://public-inbox.org/README.html https://public-inbox.org/README.html
  - gkya 6y ago
    Didn't know Thunderbird did NNTP, thanks! Can you get your own mailing lists on public-inbox, or would you have to self host? I'd love to self host git and a mailing list but setting up mailman/sympa/etc. seems to be too big a task. I was thinking setting up a wiki as a replacement for my small personal projects...
u801e 6y ago
I've brought up the same point in a number of threads that have brought up mailing lists over the years. In the specific case of mailing lists like the ones used for Linux kernel and git development, I believe many participants host their own SMTP instances and use them to send and receive messages and have had those set ups for a long time. If they were to switch to NNTP, they would either have to: 1. Create a new group on usenet (and have to somehow filter out all the spam posted to it or everyone will have to keep their NNTP client kill file up to date) or 2. They each would have to host their own NNTP server and each one would have to add enough peering servers (incoming and outgoing) to ensure that articles are propogated to them and articles they post are propagated to others or 3. The maintainer would have to set up a authoritative NNTP server and allow read access, but then have to add accounts for those who need write access (in order to allow them to submit patches). Continuing to use SMTP allows them to essentially choose option 2, but not have to set up peering servers since DNS MX records handle propagating the emails they send. That said, having a NNTP mirror of a mailing list like gmane[1] and public-inbox[2] provides the best of both worlds. You get the benefits of NNTP for reading the mailing list, but get the benefits of propagation via SMTP. [1] https://gmane.io/ https://gmane.io/ [2] https://public-inbox.org/README.html https://public-inbox.org/README.html
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  Given gmane's funding crises over the years, it feels hard to recommend relying on such a service long term. (Though I've certainly relied on it over the years for a number of different reasons.) What we almost need is an NNTP 2.0 that makes it easier for smaller federated groups. (Maybe this is a good use for ActivityPub and/or Matrix?) (Public-Inbox is new to me and at first skim seems to cover some interesting bases here. I'm not thrilled at the AGPL licensing though.)
  - rakoo 6y ago
    > What we almost need is an NNTP 2.0 that makes it easier for smaller federated groups. We've had that with XMPP and Publish-Subscribe for years: if the project has a server with this XEP enabled, any authorized user (registered anywhere) can post any type of content.

by rakoo 6y ago

progval 6y ago

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but: > - mailing lists software exist but they are another hack. There is no standard for subscribing or unsubscribing There is a standard for unsubscribing: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8058 And for subscribing, you can often open a mailto: link.

gkya 6y ago

No "good" NNTP clients, maybe besides Gnus and slrn, which are rather obscure. Gmane was relatively popular, and it was great but went down for a long time, which probably further obscured NNTP. IDK if everyone who used to use it is aware that it's up again, now at http://gmane.io/ http://gmane.io/

leephillips 6y ago
Those are both definitely good clients. And the idea to use NNTP is good, too, but has almost no chance of taking off, for social reasons.
arunc 6y ago
DFeed is the best NNTP clientI have come across https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed
u801e 6y ago
> No "good" NNTP clients Thunderbird works on most platforms. > Gmane was relatively popular, and it was great but went down for a long time Some mailing lists are now archived using public inbox[1]. There are several ways to access it including via NNTP. [1] https://public-inbox.org/README.html https://public-inbox.org/README.html
- gkya 6y ago
  Didn't know Thunderbird did NNTP, thanks! Can you get your own mailing lists on public-inbox, or would you have to self host? I'd love to self host git and a mailing list but setting up mailman/sympa/etc. seems to be too big a task. I was thinking setting up a wiki as a replacement for my small personal projects...

u801e 6y ago

I've brought up the same point in a number of threads that have brought up mailing lists over the years. In the specific case of mailing lists like the ones used for Linux kernel and git development, I believe many participants host their own SMTP instances and use them to send and receive messages and have had those set ups for a long time. If they were to switch to NNTP, they would either have to: 1. Create a new group on usenet (and have to somehow filter out all the spam posted to it or everyone will have to keep their NNTP client kill file up to date) or 2. They each would have to host their own NNTP server and each one would have to add enough peering servers (incoming and outgoing) to ensure that articles are propogated to them and articles they post are propagated to others or 3. The maintainer would have to set up a authoritative NNTP server and allow read access, but then have to add accounts for those who need write access (in order to allow them to submit patches). Continuing to use SMTP allows them to essentially choose option 2, but not have to set up peering servers since DNS MX records handle propagating the emails they send. That said, having a NNTP mirror of a mailing list like gmane[1] and public-inbox[2] provides the best of both worlds. You get the benefits of NNTP for reading the mailing list, but get the benefits of propagation via SMTP. [1] https://gmane.io/ https://gmane.io/ [2] https://public-inbox.org/README.html https://public-inbox.org/README.html

WorldMaker 6y ago
Given gmane's funding crises over the years, it feels hard to recommend relying on such a service long term. (Though I've certainly relied on it over the years for a number of different reasons.) What we almost need is an NNTP 2.0 that makes it easier for smaller federated groups. (Maybe this is a good use for ActivityPub and/or Matrix?) (Public-Inbox is new to me and at first skim seems to cover some interesting bases here. I'm not thrilled at the AGPL licensing though.)
- rakoo 6y ago
  > What we almost need is an NNTP 2.0 that makes it easier for smaller federated groups. We've had that with XMPP and Publish-Subscribe for years: if the project has a server with this XEP enabled, any authorized user (registered anywhere) can post any type of content.