6 ms·

We can all disapprove of what the current CCP is doing, but you cannot compare Hong Kong's situation to Taiwan, Tibet or Xinjiang, in fact you're muddling a bun

• nuller 6y ago
  Just let the HK people decide. You know thats not going to happen because noone wants to be Chinese. Even the fucking Chinese dont want to be Chinese.
  • fat-chunk 6y ago
    It's really sad to see that even hacker news has now been plagued by sinophobic racism
    • anu7df 6y ago
      I interpret the parent comment "Chinese don't want to be Chinese" as no one (including Chinese citizens) wants to be under the thumb of an authoritarian government. Not a racist comment.
    • pyinstallwoes 6y ago
      Both points are over generalizations. It's obviously a complex issue. I've been to Taiwan, I've been to Hong Kong, and from my conversations with all types of people the best I can understand as a foreigner is that the Government is not what being Chinese is about. It's about the culture at the end of the day. You could argue that some population of Chinese have kept a certain culture present from a particular time. There's a lot of what I was told (I can't really know) traditional culture in Taiwan. There was an interesting mix of old and new in Hong Kong. It's sad to see so much conflict as a result of weaponizing identity and heritage. The stuff of lore is what makes any story interesting, and we destroy it with inept government structures.
    • gfaure 6y ago
      Don't confuse anti-PRC sentiment with anti-Chinese sentiment. It is a classic strategy to conveniently conflate the two only when the CPC is being criticised.
      • tidenly 6y ago
        Surely you should be aiming this at the person who said "Even chinese don't want to be Chinese" - conflating the two, and not the person pointing out how incorrect that statement sounds.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • snakeboy 6y ago
      See also: > [Critiques of Israeli government] > "It's really sad to see ... plagued by anti-semitism".
    • 1996 6y ago
      This, so much. Everything I say is always taken as apologism, while I just like my country. If a US born american like his country, it's patriotism. If a China born naturalized american likes both of his countries, it's proof of CCP manipulation. Impossible to win.
      • bryanrasmussen 6y ago
        >If a US born american like his country, it's patriotism. I'm familiar with lots of narratives that say an American who loves America has been brainwashed by the system. Or is in a position of privilege and is thus not familiar with the problems inherent in the system.
    • nuller 6y ago
      For what its worth, I am married to a Chinese and I have spent months with Chinese peasants in the rural parts of China. Literally living in mud like houses.
    • pdpi 6y ago
      I think you missed a subtlety there, the point is not even the Chinese (people) want to be Chinese (citizens). It’s not sinophobic to say that the Chinese government and the CCP are messed up. I don’t doubt that many Chinese people would rather they weren’t subjected to that regime. That is entirely separate from hatred/fear/negativity toward Chinese people and/or their culture.
  • tidenly 6y ago
    Maybe my experience is limited as I only live in a neighboring country, but the majority of Chinese I know here, and those I have met in China identify strongly as Chinese, even if they dont agree with everything the government does. This take seems borderline sinophobic.
    • pyinstallwoes 6y ago
      It relates to what I heard in Taiwain (obviously from a biased leaning). But it's not sinophobic from my perspective, let me explain: From the perspective of some people I talked to in Taiwan, they see it as they "saved" what Chinese culture is, and what China represents today isn't "Chinese culture." That may not even be the right way to describe it but essentially there's culture vs government as the issue and they're not the same thing. A big fear of the non CCP people's I talked to is that CCP is destroying Chinese culture and that means they aren't Chinese. Again, just trying to add some color to what I can identify. I rather add color than blur the lines.
      • tidenly 6y ago
        Taiwanese are not Chinese though, so my point responding to OP wasn't about them. I mean people who are born & raised Chinese - they usually do want to be Chinese, even if its just in the cultural sense and not the CCP (but even then, most don't seem very vehemently opposed). Taiwans different as they've had to largely reframe the Taiwanese identity to be more about the island and its history and people who came (including indigenous peoples), rather than just centric to the Han immigration history which was framing the Taiwanese identity more Chinese-centric. I don't expect them to identify as Chinese citizens, even if they share Chinese culture. But again, not my point.
        • pyinstallwoes 6y ago
          Many "Taiwanese" people identify as Chinese. So I can't say that what you said is correct. They view Taiwan as "the last remnant of real China" However your other points make sense. I guess the idioms and expression lack the complexity in discussing the issue. Thanks for your input, it adds color.
  • jariel 6y ago
    Hong Kong wants to be 'Chinese' just not PRC.
  • dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for nationalistic flamewar. Abusing HN like this will get your main account banned as well, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• ekianjo 6y ago
  > Hong Kong has historically always been a part of "China", you could say it was "invaded" by the British and then the Japanese during WW2. Who cares about History? What matters is now and what people want now. If not, you could use that excuse "but X was always part of Y" to justify just about everything.
  • roenxi 6y ago
    Well, that was probably what China was saying when they ditched the agreement they had with Britain. China has grown large and powerful. If history matters, Hong Kong is probably part of China. If history doesn't matter, Hong Kong is part of China. I think the real question here is what was possible for Hong Kong vs. what actually happened. Riots were maybe not the best strategy, in hindsight.
    • ekianjo 6y ago
      > I think the real question here is what was possible for Hong Kong vs. what actually happened. Riots were maybe not the best strategy, in hindsight. Has any strategy ever worked with the CCP?
  • fat-chunk 6y ago
    Well geopolitics is simply not that simple. What if the Chinese government kept telling the USA that california should hold an independence referendum? Might sound like a stupid example, but Americans would be up in arms at such a proposition. What if China told the USA to end the trade blockade on Cuba so that they fairly take part in the global economy and climb out of poverty? Again, the USA would never consider such a proposition. The reality is we don't know how many HK residents want to be independent. Ideally they could hold an independence referendum, but the Chinese government don't want that, and due to the geopolitical tensions in the world right now they're not going to take advice from Western nations. You could make the same argument to the UK about Wales and Scotland, or Spain with Catalunia and the Basque Country. Neither government is going to let a referendum happen for quite a while.
    • 6y ago
• murbard2 6y ago
  > Hong Kong has historically always been a part of "China", you could say it was "invaded" by the British Making them miss the whole cultural revolution and great leap forward, how tragic.
• hedgedoops2 6y ago
  Here's how. Hong Kong is part of China, yeah, but it was (under one country two systems) an autonomous part, with its own constitution, law and judiciary, which was democractic. What makes a state? Territory, legal and executive autonomy, defense. HK did not have defense, but it had everything else. It was a de facto state, and unfortunately HAD to be, because it was to be democratic in China. Hence, it was de-facto invaded when the "security law" was imposed (in violation of HK autonomy). The analogy is not perfect, and for sure this does not make it worse or better (it's bad because it's a violation of democratic rights and against the expressed wishes of at least half the population that demonstrated against the extradition law, NOT because of souvereignity issues). But there is an analogy with invading a foreign country that is pretty strong.
• vmception 6y ago
  When I read the constitution of Hong Kong (Basic Law) and the supporting laws in mainland China, I come to the same conclusion as you. To me, this obviously overrides the text or "spirit" of any handover treaty, specifically the Sino-British Joint Declaration, as the Basic Law is a constitution. Leaning on that treaty as a Hong Kong citizen or non-British outside observer requires either complete ignorance, or complete desperation to ever reference it. Which I understand for the people of Hong Kong who have no options and don't want the change of life, but it doesn't embolden me to see it as exceptional as it follows their form of due process, by the book. So, I agree with you. Disagreeing with you requires me to have a completely separate higher standard than how governments we actually respect operate and what they would tolerate. I'm not comfortable with any of the procedures, but I really do see how we get a very distorted view of what China is, its goals, and how it operates. And there is a level of constitutional consistency towards territorial unity, which is very predictable. If you are willing to accept that (and how almost every action can be construed to undermine territorial unity) then China is very easy to operate and live in comfortably. Not so dissimilar to an institution or amusement park where you never look behind the scenes and just do the PG-rated activities made available to you, and if you stick with that you're fine. Obviously not what we are used to and strive for in "the west", but not really the nightmare its portrayed as either. Its sad to me that even trying to explain things to you all in a pragmatic way could get me detained in China (because its not completely exalting the territorial unity of China and raises questions about it), but I really think its useful to understand and that its impossible to explain another way.