4 ms·

Why haven’t viruses or bacteria evolved to use a lipid nano particle to evade the immune system? Seems like a big security flaw in our cells?

issamehh 6y ago
Don't give them any good ideas
schoen 6y ago
I remember someone coming up with a song to encourage people to wash their hands more thoroughly much earlier in this pandemic. https://twitter.com/vesselofspirit/status/1237488642425147392?lang=en https://twitter.com/vesselofspirit/status/123748864242514739... According to the song lyric, "novel coronavirus / has a lipid outer shell". So it seems like some viruses have taken advantage of this.
- retSava 6y ago
  Yeah I think that's the reason for the 20-30 second wash since it takes time for the soap to break down the fatty layer.
- ricardobayes 6y ago
  That stupid ebola song came to mind. It's very catchy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGltVAJ4JCk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGltVAJ4JCk
ufo 6y ago
If you squint you could say that viruses are already doing that. A lipid bilayer is a key component of several kinds of membranes. All of our cells have a lipid bilayers separating the inside from the outside. The corona virus is also built from these same lipids, which is why it's vulnerable to soap. Anyway, I think the important thing that the other commenter was saying is that mRNA needs to be carefully packaged to be medically useful. You can't inject pure RNA as a vaccine because not only is the mRNA going to be quickly degraded before it gets anywhere but if the immune system sees any RNA floating around by then it kicks itself into a frenzy because free-floating RNA is usually a sign that something nasty is afoot.
EamonnMR 6y ago
Some do: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_envelope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_envelope
- PetitPrince 6y ago
  And it's pretty common; the flu viruses have one.
scotty79 6y ago
Maybe those lipid particles are too unstable if they are not spiked with various proteins? Moderna vaccine has to be kept in -70 C. Viruses that can survive for any extended period of time only in -70 C won't find many hosts. Also maybe the process of creating virus shell can't naturally be done without protein scaffold.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
azernik 6y ago
They have. That spike protein is part of their envelope ("nanoparticle"). The envelopes used in an RNA vaccine are generally simpler, because they're working under different constraints than viruses. For example, their envelopes don't need to be easily manufactured in a cell. But some RNA and DNA vaccines do use viruses as their delivery mechanisms, eg the J&J COVID vaccine.
peter303 6y ago
Because some have. Phages for example.

issamehh 6y ago

Don't give them any good ideas

schoen 6y ago

I remember someone coming up with a song to encourage people to wash their hands more thoroughly much earlier in this pandemic. https://twitter.com/vesselofspirit/status/1237488642425147392?lang=en https://twitter.com/vesselofspirit/status/123748864242514739... According to the song lyric, "novel coronavirus / has a lipid outer shell". So it seems like some viruses have taken advantage of this.

retSava 6y ago
Yeah I think that's the reason for the 20-30 second wash since it takes time for the soap to break down the fatty layer.
ricardobayes 6y ago
That stupid ebola song came to mind. It's very catchy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGltVAJ4JCk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGltVAJ4JCk

ufo 6y ago

If you squint you could say that viruses are already doing that. A lipid bilayer is a key component of several kinds of membranes. All of our cells have a lipid bilayers separating the inside from the outside. The corona virus is also built from these same lipids, which is why it's vulnerable to soap. Anyway, I think the important thing that the other commenter was saying is that mRNA needs to be carefully packaged to be medically useful. You can't inject pure RNA as a vaccine because not only is the mRNA going to be quickly degraded before it gets anywhere but if the immune system sees any RNA floating around by then it kicks itself into a frenzy because free-floating RNA is usually a sign that something nasty is afoot.

EamonnMR 6y ago

Some do: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_envelope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_envelope

PetitPrince 6y ago
And it's pretty common; the flu viruses have one.

scotty79 6y ago

Maybe those lipid particles are too unstable if they are not spiked with various proteins? Moderna vaccine has to be kept in -70 C. Viruses that can survive for any extended period of time only in -70 C won't find many hosts. Also maybe the process of creating virus shell can't naturally be done without protein scaffold.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

azernik 6y ago

They have. That spike protein is part of their envelope ("nanoparticle"). The envelopes used in an RNA vaccine are generally simpler, because they're working under different constraints than viruses. For example, their envelopes don't need to be easily manufactured in a cell. But some RNA and DNA vaccines do use viruses as their delivery mechanisms, eg the J&J COVID vaccine.

peter303 6y ago

Because some have. Phages for example.