4 ms·

Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for exampl

Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonstrate that it's very common.

ggm 6y ago
... of his standing.
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
  - ggm 6y ago
    I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it. I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely? You made the call, good for you. I admire that. I wish more people with established status did, and said so. Am I missing something? is there a lot of news out there about CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things? I don't see it, and thats what I'm responding to here. Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. He looked at what was going to happen with it, and decided to stop feeding the beast. Where's the equivalent behavour from his peer-set in todays world?
    - anon_tor_12345 6y ago
      >CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example. >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-redeem-the-world-with-logic http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...
      - jpfr 6y ago
        > he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their relationship.
        pessimizer 6y ago
        And how do we know that it was a lie? Did she admit it later? If she did, what were the reasons to believe her recantation over her accusation? Did the daughter say it was a lie later in life? All I know from the article is that Wiener, a very smart person, thought the accusation was credible enough at the time to completely cut off people who were very important to him personally and intellectually. I also know that those people accused were very heavy drinkers. It's safer to say we don't know anything about the veracity of the claim unless the reference offered some sort of material alibi.
- brobdingnagians 6y ago
  Part of the issue might be that those who choose the more moral course don't get the large government grants and military funding, which means that they don't get well known, not because they aren't just as talented but because of lack of funds. So scientists of standing may self select for the kind of person who will do anything for money and fame. If society had more funding for principled causes, or celebrated those with them, we might see more scientists with standing (i.e. well-known) who also stuck to their principles.
pierrefermat1 6y ago
I think it's noble from a personal perspective but realistically all developments made in CV are eventually going to be used in military applications anyway.

ggm 6y ago

... of his standing.

anon_tor_12345 6y ago
i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
- ggm 6y ago
  I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it. I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely? You made the call, good for you. I admire that. I wish more people with established status did, and said so. Am I missing something? is there a lot of news out there about CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things? I don't see it, and thats what I'm responding to here. Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. He looked at what was going to happen with it, and decided to stop feeding the beast. Where's the equivalent behavour from his peer-set in todays world?
  - anon_tor_12345 6y ago
    >CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example. >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-redeem-the-world-with-logic http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...
    - jpfr 6y ago
      > he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their relationship.
      - pessimizer 6y ago
        And how do we know that it was a lie? Did she admit it later? If she did, what were the reasons to believe her recantation over her accusation? Did the daughter say it was a lie later in life? All I know from the article is that Wiener, a very smart person, thought the accusation was credible enough at the time to completely cut off people who were very important to him personally and intellectually. I also know that those people accused were very heavy drinkers. It's safer to say we don't know anything about the veracity of the claim unless the reference offered some sort of material alibi.
brobdingnagians 6y ago
Part of the issue might be that those who choose the more moral course don't get the large government grants and military funding, which means that they don't get well known, not because they aren't just as talented but because of lack of funds. So scientists of standing may self select for the kind of person who will do anything for money and fame. If society had more funding for principled causes, or celebrated those with them, we might see more scientists with standing (i.e. well-known) who also stuck to their principles.

pierrefermat1 6y ago

I think it's noble from a personal perspective but realistically all developments made in CV are eventually going to be used in military applications anyway.