3 ms·

The problem is that their teachings also contain a lot of falsehoods. For example, the majority of churches in the US teach that gay sex will cause a person to

The problem is that their teachings also contain a lot of falsehoods. For example, the majority of churches in the US teach that gay sex will cause a person to be tortured for eternity in hell. That teaching is probably wrong and causes so much damage to so many people.

tbihl 6y ago
I admit that I have only participated in a minority of all the churches in the US, but I have never attended any church where your statement would be consistent with doctrine on hell, sin, or homosexuality.
- lalaland1125 6y ago
  I guess you never attended the Catholic Church? They are quite explicit that gay sex is a grave sin.
  - tbihl 6y ago
    Viewing pornography is equally as likely to be grave sin (I say equally likely because the act is a necessary but not sufficient condition for meeting the definition of mortal sin). I don't mean to downplay that pornography is a negative influence, but you misunderstand mortal sin [1]. Paragraphs 1854 -1864 are particularly relevant. Mortal/grave sins must be confessed per catholic doctrine, but to say that the mere acts were final is to misunderstand the whole concept of the new covenant. [1] https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s...
    - lalaland1125 6y ago
      > Mortal/grave sins must be confessed per catholic doctrine Can you truly perform confession for a sin that you are unrepentant about? Like if someone is continuously having gay sex with no regrets or desire to change can they really "confess" about that? Don't you need to at least "admit" that you have sinned in order to confess? I agree with you that a couple of instances of gay sex doesn't send a person to hell, but a lifestyle where you accept gay sex as a fundamental part of yourself that you don't even try to change does send you hell if I understand the doctrine correctly.
      - tbihl 6y ago
        I agree that that wouldn't do as a confession. I believe that would be considered an invalid confession, just like withholding grave sins that you didn't want to talk about. My disagreement is in the idea of permanently accepting a lifestyle oriented around gay sex while also trying to remain a Christian. That lifestyle is clearly contrary to the church teachings, so maintaining such a stance over a lifetime requires spiritual stagnation such that you don't have to face the dissonance involved. That assumes a foundation of belief; without belief, church is like any other social function; with it, the idea of rejecting teachings shouldn't seem like a viable path. There are plenty of churches where such dissonance is the norm and a welcome contributor to doctrine, but if you aren't taking the teachings as foundational, then you're sort of just using Jesus as a figurehead of a pretty nice guy, which the Catholic church reliably objects to. Having said all that, there are plenty of problems with implementation. I don't think you'd have to look far to find a Catholic church where many or most people agree to quietly disagree about contraception.They shouldn't be allowed to do so,but it's a much easier thing to hide. And you could argue that it's a much less visible, and thus less subversive, transgression (not clear that that's true.) In both of those cases, though, the last thing the church should be doing is casting believers out. If they do that, they're abdicating their very clear responsibility to help those people. Whether you agree with those changes being "help", from the perspective of doctrinally sound preachers/congregants/parishes, directing others to lives ordered toward church teachings is the most important and morally obligatory thing.
        lalaland1125 6y ago
        So it seems like we agree on the original premise? The catholic church does teach that gay sex (over a lifetime) sends a person to hell? I guess you would say that the action that sends a person to hell is the refusal to follow church doctrine, but when the church doctrine is "don't have gay sex" ...
        tbihl 6y ago
        So, we'll first put aside one thing, which is that the Catholic church provides very few guarantees for making it to hell,from, far as I can tell. There's some humility of saying that our lot is not to have full understanding of how God works (this also sidesteps some issues of unbaptized infants and people who were never exposed to Christianity.) You can get a system of salvation from God, but He gets to override that whenever he wants for worthy causes. However, even with that out of the way, it's not that gay sex accumulates some overwhelming terrible immoral inertia in a person that eventually cannot be stopped. But it drives a person away from God continually. To really understate the idea by a weak analogy, it's like how eating a diet of constant sugar will not necessarily kill you, but is likely to lead to diabetes and metabolic disorders that people rarely come back from, even though we recognize that coming back from these is entirely possible. And not just that, but watching this from the sideline, you can't comprehend how the people suffering from these problems would sooner die than just curb sugar intake. How people walk into the general surgery practices day after day, not even acting surprised when you tell them you'll be cutting their right foot off because the loss of circulation from diabetes has caused it to become gangrenous. Now apply that to something more important than your foot or your mortal life. The church's perspective is that unrepentant gay sex is to living a life ordered toward God, as excessive sugar intake is to proper metabolic functioning. The particular urgency in this sin is that I am likely able to drink too much and disrespect my wife and watch porn, but then repent. All those things will weaken my relationship with God, but my acceptance that they're wrong allows me to be guided rightly. Living a committed homosexual life is inconsistent with living a life of God; being committed to both means that sooner or later, the incoherence will cause one or the other link to break completely. "If your left eye causes you to sin, better to cut it out..."
geedy 6y ago
Religions house many people fearful of what is happening in their lives, the lives of their loved ones. They want explanations for why their expectations and needs are not met. Is it surprising that the powerful would leverage that fear? Funny how the Hebrew and Greek words for fear have so many other meanings, and yet the church has taught but one for so long when considering the "fear of God". Seems to contradict "perfect love casts out all fear". Perhaps we would all be better off if we understood "wisdom begins with the awe of God" as the preferred intention. Because fear based things really suck.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
Totally different tangent, but I've been thinking differently since COVID and all. Gay sex is a huge factor for the spread of STDs and HIV for obvious reasons anal penetrative sex is practiced more commonly by gay people and is far more likely to spread STDs and HIV. That's also damaging to society. The same way not wearing a mask and spreading COVID is damaging to society. We've been telling people don't travel, stay home, don't visit your relatives in the hospital, don't go to school, limit human interaction, etc. to control COVID. Isn't all that far more damaging to people than COVID? If not, then isn't a negative social view of gay (and all adulterous) sex worth limiting the spread of STDs/HIV?

tbihl 6y ago

I admit that I have only participated in a minority of all the churches in the US, but I have never attended any church where your statement would be consistent with doctrine on hell, sin, or homosexuality.

lalaland1125 6y ago
I guess you never attended the Catholic Church? They are quite explicit that gay sex is a grave sin.
- tbihl 6y ago
  Viewing pornography is equally as likely to be grave sin (I say equally likely because the act is a necessary but not sufficient condition for meeting the definition of mortal sin). I don't mean to downplay that pornography is a negative influence, but you misunderstand mortal sin [1]. Paragraphs 1854 -1864 are particularly relevant. Mortal/grave sins must be confessed per catholic doctrine, but to say that the mere acts were final is to misunderstand the whole concept of the new covenant. [1] https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s...
  - lalaland1125 6y ago
    > Mortal/grave sins must be confessed per catholic doctrine Can you truly perform confession for a sin that you are unrepentant about? Like if someone is continuously having gay sex with no regrets or desire to change can they really "confess" about that? Don't you need to at least "admit" that you have sinned in order to confess? I agree with you that a couple of instances of gay sex doesn't send a person to hell, but a lifestyle where you accept gay sex as a fundamental part of yourself that you don't even try to change does send you hell if I understand the doctrine correctly.
    - tbihl 6y ago
      I agree that that wouldn't do as a confession. I believe that would be considered an invalid confession, just like withholding grave sins that you didn't want to talk about. My disagreement is in the idea of permanently accepting a lifestyle oriented around gay sex while also trying to remain a Christian. That lifestyle is clearly contrary to the church teachings, so maintaining such a stance over a lifetime requires spiritual stagnation such that you don't have to face the dissonance involved. That assumes a foundation of belief; without belief, church is like any other social function; with it, the idea of rejecting teachings shouldn't seem like a viable path. There are plenty of churches where such dissonance is the norm and a welcome contributor to doctrine, but if you aren't taking the teachings as foundational, then you're sort of just using Jesus as a figurehead of a pretty nice guy, which the Catholic church reliably objects to. Having said all that, there are plenty of problems with implementation. I don't think you'd have to look far to find a Catholic church where many or most people agree to quietly disagree about contraception.They shouldn't be allowed to do so,but it's a much easier thing to hide. And you could argue that it's a much less visible, and thus less subversive, transgression (not clear that that's true.) In both of those cases, though, the last thing the church should be doing is casting believers out. If they do that, they're abdicating their very clear responsibility to help those people. Whether you agree with those changes being "help", from the perspective of doctrinally sound preachers/congregants/parishes, directing others to lives ordered toward church teachings is the most important and morally obligatory thing.
      - lalaland1125 6y ago
        So it seems like we agree on the original premise? The catholic church does teach that gay sex (over a lifetime) sends a person to hell? I guess you would say that the action that sends a person to hell is the refusal to follow church doctrine, but when the church doctrine is "don't have gay sex" ...
        tbihl 6y ago
        So, we'll first put aside one thing, which is that the Catholic church provides very few guarantees for making it to hell,from, far as I can tell. There's some humility of saying that our lot is not to have full understanding of how God works (this also sidesteps some issues of unbaptized infants and people who were never exposed to Christianity.) You can get a system of salvation from God, but He gets to override that whenever he wants for worthy causes. However, even with that out of the way, it's not that gay sex accumulates some overwhelming terrible immoral inertia in a person that eventually cannot be stopped. But it drives a person away from God continually. To really understate the idea by a weak analogy, it's like how eating a diet of constant sugar will not necessarily kill you, but is likely to lead to diabetes and metabolic disorders that people rarely come back from, even though we recognize that coming back from these is entirely possible. And not just that, but watching this from the sideline, you can't comprehend how the people suffering from these problems would sooner die than just curb sugar intake. How people walk into the general surgery practices day after day, not even acting surprised when you tell them you'll be cutting their right foot off because the loss of circulation from diabetes has caused it to become gangrenous. Now apply that to something more important than your foot or your mortal life. The church's perspective is that unrepentant gay sex is to living a life ordered toward God, as excessive sugar intake is to proper metabolic functioning. The particular urgency in this sin is that I am likely able to drink too much and disrespect my wife and watch porn, but then repent. All those things will weaken my relationship with God, but my acceptance that they're wrong allows me to be guided rightly. Living a committed homosexual life is inconsistent with living a life of God; being committed to both means that sooner or later, the incoherence will cause one or the other link to break completely. "If your left eye causes you to sin, better to cut it out..."

geedy 6y ago

Religions house many people fearful of what is happening in their lives, the lives of their loved ones. They want explanations for why their expectations and needs are not met. Is it surprising that the powerful would leverage that fear? Funny how the Hebrew and Greek words for fear have so many other meanings, and yet the church has taught but one for so long when considering the "fear of God". Seems to contradict "perfect love casts out all fear". Perhaps we would all be better off if we understood "wisdom begins with the awe of God" as the preferred intention. Because fear based things really suck.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

Totally different tangent, but I've been thinking differently since COVID and all. Gay sex is a huge factor for the spread of STDs and HIV for obvious reasons anal penetrative sex is practiced more commonly by gay people and is far more likely to spread STDs and HIV. That's also damaging to society. The same way not wearing a mask and spreading COVID is damaging to society. We've been telling people don't travel, stay home, don't visit your relatives in the hospital, don't go to school, limit human interaction, etc. to control COVID. Isn't all that far more damaging to people than COVID? If not, then isn't a negative social view of gay (and all adulterous) sex worth limiting the spread of STDs/HIV?