6 ms·

I wish apple would stop using/forcing IC manufacturers to restrict supply of components on their board. The IRP provides parts, but when it comes to apple, the

by genmud 6y ago

I wish apple would stop using/forcing IC manufacturers to restrict supply of components on their board. The IRP provides parts, but when it comes to apple, the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown because of liquid damage, you have to replace the entire PCB, which for a MBP might be like $800-1200. I feel like there is so much ewaste that wouldn't head to the landfill if this wasn't the case.

lostgame 6y ago
That's the dream, isn't it? :P Repairable, or, especially, upgradeable Macs are absolutely a fever dream of mine.
- google234123 6y ago
  How many hours of specialist work would it be to find and replace a single tiny faulty IC on a large PCB? I can't imagine it's actually cost effective.
  - MrTastie 6y ago
    Not many. When you work with the same boards over and over, you tend to know the places to check when certain issues come up. Fewer dollars in man-hours than the cost of a board replacement.
  - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
    It’s not so bad if you can get enough customers and it’s all the same laptop. Lewis Rossman has a very good knowledge of the MacBook internals and he can very quickly identify which chip is dead because it’s often the same chips that fail and they give the same symptoms so with a few voltage checks with a multi meter you can work out what chip needs replacing. The problem is the suppliers for apple have tightened protocols and they won’t talk to him anymore so what used to be $1 in new parts and $40 in effort is now telling the customer to throw their MacBook in the bin. The economics also changes in other countries where the cost of a laptop far exceeds the wages of the people living there so having someone mess around with it for a few days is still more cost effective than getting a new one.
  - genmud 6y ago
    Depends on the fault. If the schematics are readily available and replacement parts are there, it would take maybe 20-40 minutes of troubleshooting? Sure its complicated, but if you charge $150-200/hour, it can certainly be cost effective when the alternative is $1200 for a new PCB or $2500 for a new laptop.
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
      > $1200 for a new PCB That's probably not what it costs Apple. Especially with the M1, they pay per square inch of wafer, not chip...
      - genmud 6y ago
        Definitely not, but the way they probably calculate this is: Total Bill of Materials = display + motherboard + laptop case + keyboard + trackpad + charger + cable Then they figure out what percentage each subassembly costs in the BOM and then divide by the retail price of the product, maybe rounding up a hundred or two. So if for example the motherboard is 40% of the total BOM of a $2500 laptop, you have a $1,000 motherboard right there.
  - devwastaken 6y ago
    Lookup louis rossman. It's very effective - especially when macbooks have common failures.
  - simion314 6y ago
    Many times the same parts fail over and over, you do not start checking from A to Z. Honestly I am expecting somone to comment that he made a neural network that will detect the exact problem just from the error codes and a board picture, maybe an infrared one too.
  - stefan_ 6y ago
    You are forgetting that many faults are from more or less design issues on the particular product revisions so there is a lot to be said for identifying the fault pattern once, then just applying it over and over again. Then, the cost you are competing with is the replacement cost for typically the entire logic board, which can easily be $800 - that buys a lot of hours. That said there is a kernel of truth here which is that component level repair requires diagnostic acumen, creativity and some mechanical skill. That requires some actual expertise, training, .. in your repair business instead of hiring monkeys that replace full boards no matter what.
  - rasz 6y ago
    0.1 to 2 hours at ~$350 flat fee.
paxys 6y ago
While that would be great, it's a pointless wish considering Apple has been steadily moving in the exact opposite direction for years. And now other manufacturers are doing the same following their lead. Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer.
- xnyan 6y ago
  >Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer Why forget? We're talking about Apple, and it's a choice Apple could make at any time. It took me a few years, but I am now pretty damn good with my hot air reflow station and can reliably work with pretty much any SMD. If someone (who of of course has given informed consent that I am not Apple and they have no responsibility for this repair) wants me to try and fix their device, what's the good reason for Apple not selling me a component? Because it makes no sense if your goal is to make as much money as possible. You'd rather sell them something new or capture as much profit as possible by selling your repairs. I'm an apple customer only because I consider them the least worst option for me at this time. Nobody is king forever, and the second there's a viable option for me, I'm out.
  - bilbo0s 6y ago
    what's the good reason for apple not selling me a component? I have no personal insight into the content of Apple's contracts. That said, having had a bit of experience in that sort of thing previously, the "good reason" could be Apple's contracts with its suppliers. Maybe Apple gets different contracts since they are such a market maker, but for a normal startup, be prepared to not be able to sell those parts on to third parties. Full stop. Many people sometimes don't read or fully understand the fine print in those contracts. ("Many people" being me and my partners as first time hardware guys.) Not sure why suppliers do that? Maybe so that they can capture that markup revenue themselves? Or maybe they don't want you moving into that business at all even as a "parts seller"? But in dealing with component suppliers at a less larger scale, there are many things you have to agree to that would have made doing what you ask explicitly a breach of our contracts. You would think Apple has better contracts though? I would think they would have far more flexibility. Just throwing out what we had to deal with and thinking "what if Apple has the same thing going on?"
birdyrooster 6y ago
For most manufacturers I agree, but Apple has the capability to disassemble and refurbish their devices in an automated fashion and incentivizes users to trade in their old equipment with discounts on new products. There is a lot less that gets sent to landfill as a result.
- genmud 6y ago
  I would love to hear sources on that, I doubt that apple refurbs their 2-3 year old laptops and sells them to customers. Maybe they are doing this for iPhone lines, but I doubt they are doing it for their MBP/iPad stuff. TBH, refurb stuff in my mind is basically remanufactured. When most devices go through that process at a manufacturer, many times they will get the guts pulled out and have replacement cosmetics redone. I have never seen anything but the current gen stuff or N-1 laptops for sale on their refurb store, so call that into question.
reaperducer 6y ago
the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown If it can't be bought, how do you know it costs $4? More to the point — I don't think Apple is focused on repair shops as competition. I think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the hands of their real competitors. The indy repair facilities are just collateral damage.
- kevincox 6y ago
  I doubt that is true. There is lots of evidence that shows Apple is quite actively trying to cycle phones through consumers faster. Preventing other manufacturers from buying them may be another benefit, but fighting repairs is more than a happy accident.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  > think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the hands of their real competitors How does that even make sense - the parts are shipping with the devices. And reverse engineering stuff from the device to the point of being able to repair (ie. reverse engineering to the point of a repair manual) should be fairly trivial for invested parties.
- genmud 6y ago
  Because parts of similar make/capabilities by the exact same manufacturer are sold at that price. What Apple is doing is working with the supplier to roll a specific IC that is for use exclusively by them. The issue is that many of these components don't have any secret sauce (or if they do, its minimal) and are black boxes which can't be bought. I'm even giving them a huge price hike, since on many of the things, for example a common DC-DC converter with multiple rails in a WLCSP or BGA package is more like $.20-$.35 at the volumes they buy. They are definitely not doing this as a competitive thing against Samsung/Huawei, since Samsung/Huawei aren't competitors on laptops. This is specifically around their laptops/desktops. These practices are definitely targeted at removing the capabilities to do component level repair. If they were not, you could allow your suppliers to sell those ICs to component level repair shops. The problem is that Apple has a pattern and well established history of this type of anti-repair behavior. They have also been actively engaged in lobbying against these types of rights. They definitely don't get to have the benefit of the doubt on this topic.

by genmud 6y ago

lostgame 6y ago

That's the dream, isn't it? :P Repairable, or, especially, upgradeable Macs are absolutely a fever dream of mine.

google234123 6y ago
How many hours of specialist work would it be to find and replace a single tiny faulty IC on a large PCB? I can't imagine it's actually cost effective.
- MrTastie 6y ago
  Not many. When you work with the same boards over and over, you tend to know the places to check when certain issues come up. Fewer dollars in man-hours than the cost of a board replacement.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  It’s not so bad if you can get enough customers and it’s all the same laptop. Lewis Rossman has a very good knowledge of the MacBook internals and he can very quickly identify which chip is dead because it’s often the same chips that fail and they give the same symptoms so with a few voltage checks with a multi meter you can work out what chip needs replacing. The problem is the suppliers for apple have tightened protocols and they won’t talk to him anymore so what used to be $1 in new parts and $40 in effort is now telling the customer to throw their MacBook in the bin. The economics also changes in other countries where the cost of a laptop far exceeds the wages of the people living there so having someone mess around with it for a few days is still more cost effective than getting a new one.
- genmud 6y ago
  Depends on the fault. If the schematics are readily available and replacement parts are there, it would take maybe 20-40 minutes of troubleshooting? Sure its complicated, but if you charge $150-200/hour, it can certainly be cost effective when the alternative is $1200 for a new PCB or $2500 for a new laptop.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    > $1200 for a new PCB That's probably not what it costs Apple. Especially with the M1, they pay per square inch of wafer, not chip...
    - genmud 6y ago
      Definitely not, but the way they probably calculate this is: Total Bill of Materials = display + motherboard + laptop case + keyboard + trackpad + charger + cable Then they figure out what percentage each subassembly costs in the BOM and then divide by the retail price of the product, maybe rounding up a hundred or two. So if for example the motherboard is 40% of the total BOM of a $2500 laptop, you have a $1,000 motherboard right there.
- devwastaken 6y ago
  Lookup louis rossman. It's very effective - especially when macbooks have common failures.
- simion314 6y ago
  Many times the same parts fail over and over, you do not start checking from A to Z. Honestly I am expecting somone to comment that he made a neural network that will detect the exact problem just from the error codes and a board picture, maybe an infrared one too.
- stefan_ 6y ago
  You are forgetting that many faults are from more or less design issues on the particular product revisions so there is a lot to be said for identifying the fault pattern once, then just applying it over and over again. Then, the cost you are competing with is the replacement cost for typically the entire logic board, which can easily be $800 - that buys a lot of hours. That said there is a kernel of truth here which is that component level repair requires diagnostic acumen, creativity and some mechanical skill. That requires some actual expertise, training, .. in your repair business instead of hiring monkeys that replace full boards no matter what.
- rasz 6y ago
  0.1 to 2 hours at ~$350 flat fee.

paxys 6y ago

While that would be great, it's a pointless wish considering Apple has been steadily moving in the exact opposite direction for years. And now other manufacturers are doing the same following their lead. Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer.

xnyan 6y ago
>Forget ICs, now you can't even upgrade storage or RAM in your own computer Why forget? We're talking about Apple, and it's a choice Apple could make at any time. It took me a few years, but I am now pretty damn good with my hot air reflow station and can reliably work with pretty much any SMD. If someone (who of of course has given informed consent that I am not Apple and they have no responsibility for this repair) wants me to try and fix their device, what's the good reason for Apple not selling me a component? Because it makes no sense if your goal is to make as much money as possible. You'd rather sell them something new or capture as much profit as possible by selling your repairs. I'm an apple customer only because I consider them the least worst option for me at this time. Nobody is king forever, and the second there's a viable option for me, I'm out.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  what's the good reason for apple not selling me a component? I have no personal insight into the content of Apple's contracts. That said, having had a bit of experience in that sort of thing previously, the "good reason" could be Apple's contracts with its suppliers. Maybe Apple gets different contracts since they are such a market maker, but for a normal startup, be prepared to not be able to sell those parts on to third parties. Full stop. Many people sometimes don't read or fully understand the fine print in those contracts. ("Many people" being me and my partners as first time hardware guys.) Not sure why suppliers do that? Maybe so that they can capture that markup revenue themselves? Or maybe they don't want you moving into that business at all even as a "parts seller"? But in dealing with component suppliers at a less larger scale, there are many things you have to agree to that would have made doing what you ask explicitly a breach of our contracts. You would think Apple has better contracts though? I would think they would have far more flexibility. Just throwing out what we had to deal with and thinking "what if Apple has the same thing going on?"

birdyrooster 6y ago

For most manufacturers I agree, but Apple has the capability to disassemble and refurbish their devices in an automated fashion and incentivizes users to trade in their old equipment with discounts on new products. There is a lot less that gets sent to landfill as a result.

genmud 6y ago
I would love to hear sources on that, I doubt that apple refurbs their 2-3 year old laptops and sells them to customers. Maybe they are doing this for iPhone lines, but I doubt they are doing it for their MBP/iPad stuff. TBH, refurb stuff in my mind is basically remanufactured. When most devices go through that process at a manufacturer, many times they will get the guts pulled out and have replacement cosmetics redone. I have never seen anything but the current gen stuff or N-1 laptops for sale on their refurb store, so call that into question.

reaperducer 6y ago

the only parts available are the entire assemblies, which is a bummer. Instead of replacing a $4 IC that got blown If it can't be bought, how do you know it costs $4? More to the point — I don't think Apple is focused on repair shops as competition. I think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the hands of their real competitors. The indy repair facilities are just collateral damage.

kevincox 6y ago
I doubt that is true. There is lots of evidence that shows Apple is quite actively trying to cycle phones through consumers faster. Preventing other manufacturers from buying them may be another benefit, but fighting repairs is more than a happy accident.
reader_mode 6y ago
> think they're focused on the likes of Samsung and Huawei as competition, and lock up the parts to keep them out of the hands of their real competitors How does that even make sense - the parts are shipping with the devices. And reverse engineering stuff from the device to the point of being able to repair (ie. reverse engineering to the point of a repair manual) should be fairly trivial for invested parties.
genmud 6y ago
Because parts of similar make/capabilities by the exact same manufacturer are sold at that price. What Apple is doing is working with the supplier to roll a specific IC that is for use exclusively by them. The issue is that many of these components don't have any secret sauce (or if they do, its minimal) and are black boxes which can't be bought. I'm even giving them a huge price hike, since on many of the things, for example a common DC-DC converter with multiple rails in a WLCSP or BGA package is more like $.20-$.35 at the volumes they buy. They are definitely not doing this as a competitive thing against Samsung/Huawei, since Samsung/Huawei aren't competitors on laptops. This is specifically around their laptops/desktops. These practices are definitely targeted at removing the capabilities to do component level repair. If they were not, you could allow your suppliers to sell those ICs to component level repair shops. The problem is that Apple has a pattern and well established history of this type of anti-repair behavior. They have also been actively engaged in lobbying against these types of rights. They definitely don't get to have the benefit of the doubt on this topic.