6 ms·

Strong disagreement from here. I don't want that kind of stuff in bug reports for the same reason that I don't want to have to deal with "hello", "good morning

Strong disagreement from here. I don't want that kind of stuff in bug reports for the same reason that I don't want to have to deal with "hello", "good morning", from coworkers in messenger applications, and I will assume that for your sake you don't want to deal with it either, unless you explicitly say so. So if this is a requirement for writing and responding to bugs, then you should "say it in words" that that's what you want.

eropple 6y ago
The baseline expectation of social niceties is the lubricant upon which our human systems run. That you don't personally find them necessary, or even perhaps find them aggravating, does not mean that they should not be by-default valued in the recognition that the person at the other end of the line is a fellow human being with feelings and needs. It does not take much effort to be nice in the general case. Your desire for efficiency does not supersede respect for others' humanity. And, frankly--resentment at a coworker for saying "good morning"? Yikes.
- pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
  I'll note that you didn't start your response here with pleasantries, and no one else has, either. By leaping at the opportunity to condescendingly explain human behavior, you've slipped into attacking a strawman. Take your passive aggressive yikes elsewhere. Being delayed by a "good morning" from an oblivious coworker? More than just annoying. (Obligatory "pleasantries" from coworkers who otherwise take glee in making you miserable and obstruct you for sport? Much, much worse.) We're not friends--we're coworkers, at least nominally, and I probably have a stack of shit this high to deal with--that you may or may not be the cause of. How about this for being "nice": don't force me into dealing with your bullshit, against my wishes. Where's your recognition that I'm a human with feelings and needs?
  - bobthebuilders 6y ago
    You're unable of living in real life if you can't exchange pleasantries. It's kinda sad for some of us introverts out there, but the reality is that these things can do a lot for even simple things like job mobility in the subconscious sense. You may get mad at someone for interrupting your work for instance, but saying hello and goodbye and thank you does wonders for getting people to like you more, being able to tell someone to stop bothering you when you need it, and even in what people perceive as personality.
    - pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
      So you're doubling down on condescendingly explaining how to human. Cool. Consider this: I have a high emotional IQ and acutely understand whatever lesson you think you're imparting here, I just don't have the kind of bullshit budget required in this context. Here's the obvious consequence that no one ever seems to get, even with having it explained to them: if I'm going to have to start dropping things on the floor and make some people unhappy, guess who I'm going to choose to be the recipient? All the people most responsible for squandering the resources that were available.
      - bobthebuilders 6y ago
        I don't see how I'm being condescending or doubling down?
        JetAlone 6y ago
        I suspect they mistook you for the last poster, eropple.
        pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
        > how to human
        bobthebuilders 6y ago
        That's not a quote from me? I think you're just proving my point.
  - sjwright 6y ago
    > I'll note that you didn't start your response here with pleasantries, and no one else has, either. There are obvious differences between expressing an opinion and asking others to do something for you. Understanding that distinction makes this apparent contradiction entirely explicable.
    - pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
      Actual problem: not understanding the distinction between a bug report and form meant for "asking others to do something for you".
      - sjwright 6y ago
        Actual problem: believing that the distinction between those two is relevant.
        pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
        This is the second instance of an attempt on your part to use circular reasoning so that it might be impossible to argue with you. It's clear now that you're just here for the conflict, and not (sound) resolutions. This is a dead end.
        sjwright 6y ago
        If you can describe anything about my argument which soundly qualifies as circular, I'll concede all disagreements with you, accept that you're correct in everything you have said and I'll even donate AU$500 to a charity of your choice. > It's clear now that you're just here for the conflict Says the person who thinks that basic, pro forma civility requires a "bullshit budget."
  - taneq 6y ago
    Hi, good evening, you seem like a dick. Bye now.
    - junon 6y ago
      24k rep on HN, you should know that's not how we converse here, regardless of whether or not you agree with GP.
      - taneq 6y ago
        I stand by my assessment of GP, but that's beside the point. You're right, and I apologise.
        sjwright 6y ago
        I wouldn’t apologise. I strongly respect the social rules of hacker news but they are by no means perfect and tend to break down in the face of a well calibrated troll. This particular variant is the verbose non sequitur anti-pattern. It’s effective because it generally can’t be identified at a glance. It requires a lot of contextualised reading. This means it gets few down votes, the canonical sign of disapproval here.
- scatters 6y ago
  "Good morning" in chat is not a pleasantry. It is a demand for the other person to switch to synchronous communication and attend to their conversation ahead of everything else the other person has to deal with. Respect for others' humanity implies respecting their time first of all.
- WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
  There's a difference between having niceties and content in one message: > Good morning! When I foo the bar, I expect it to baz, as per documentation at <link>, but it seems to be drizzling instead. Could you please tell me if it's me doing something wrong, or there is a bug in bar that prevents me from fooing it? Thank you! Compare this with the typical annoying IM exchange that happens across multiple timezones (EU ↔ India seems to be the worst): <Mar 01 2021 05:59> Them: Hi <Mar 01 2021 10:00> Me: Hi, what's up? <Mar 02 2021 04:03> Them: Do you have a moment? <Mar 02 2021 10:00> Me: Yeah, what's your concern? <Mar 03 2021 04:20> Them: I have a question <Mar 03 2021 10:00> Me: What's the question? <Mar 04 2021 04:54> Them: I'm trying to foo the bar and it doesn't work Grrrrgggh! Four days! FOUR days pass and they are only starting to ask the damn question! Okay. Sometimes it's not so bad. Sometimes it's only two days wasted.
  - rcxdude 6y ago
    Yeah, this is a really annoying habit in instant messangers, even without the long delays in response. I've just taken to not responding to messages like 'hi'. Either state what you want or I'm not going to interrupt my workflow to ask. (that said, I don't mind (and may appreciate) pleasentries included along with useful questions or information, even on bug reports, just don't add more round-trips for the sake of them).
  - bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
    Ooof, never seen it that bad, but that would be really annoying and you shouldn't tolerate it. My rule is if the help I need isn't so urgent that it requires chat, then I'll send an email. Also if I'm doing something in response to their request then I'll always say what I'm doing when I do it, so they at least know that their request is being worked on. Kinda like Mav: Switching to guns Goose: Ok Mav: Firing! Goose Ok, hit? Mav: No - trying it again as sudo ...
  - eropple 6y ago
    There absolutely is a difference between inefficient and efficient communication, and you're right to highlight it. There is no gap between efficient and pleasant communication, though, and attacking pleasantry as if its sin is inefficiency is pretty messed up. Like you say, that exchange is no less pleasant, and of course way more efficient, if it's one message with better information density. That takes some coaching, but the answer (and to be clear I don't think you're advocating for it) absolutely isn't "be a grouchy turd in the name of efficiency". (And arguably that should then be an email, but most folks have forgotten that email exists, so, yeah.)

eropple 6y ago

The baseline expectation of social niceties is the lubricant upon which our human systems run. That you don't personally find them necessary, or even perhaps find them aggravating, does not mean that they should not be by-default valued in the recognition that the person at the other end of the line is a fellow human being with feelings and needs. It does not take much effort to be nice in the general case. Your desire for efficiency does not supersede respect for others' humanity. And, frankly--resentment at a coworker for saying "good morning"? Yikes.

pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
I'll note that you didn't start your response here with pleasantries, and no one else has, either. By leaping at the opportunity to condescendingly explain human behavior, you've slipped into attacking a strawman. Take your passive aggressive yikes elsewhere. Being delayed by a "good morning" from an oblivious coworker? More than just annoying. (Obligatory "pleasantries" from coworkers who otherwise take glee in making you miserable and obstruct you for sport? Much, much worse.) We're not friends--we're coworkers, at least nominally, and I probably have a stack of shit this high to deal with--that you may or may not be the cause of. How about this for being "nice": don't force me into dealing with your bullshit, against my wishes. Where's your recognition that I'm a human with feelings and needs?
- bobthebuilders 6y ago
  You're unable of living in real life if you can't exchange pleasantries. It's kinda sad for some of us introverts out there, but the reality is that these things can do a lot for even simple things like job mobility in the subconscious sense. You may get mad at someone for interrupting your work for instance, but saying hello and goodbye and thank you does wonders for getting people to like you more, being able to tell someone to stop bothering you when you need it, and even in what people perceive as personality.
  - pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
    So you're doubling down on condescendingly explaining how to human. Cool. Consider this: I have a high emotional IQ and acutely understand whatever lesson you think you're imparting here, I just don't have the kind of bullshit budget required in this context. Here's the obvious consequence that no one ever seems to get, even with having it explained to them: if I'm going to have to start dropping things on the floor and make some people unhappy, guess who I'm going to choose to be the recipient? All the people most responsible for squandering the resources that were available.
    - bobthebuilders 6y ago
      I don't see how I'm being condescending or doubling down?
      - JetAlone 6y ago
        I suspect they mistook you for the last poster, eropple.
      - pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
        > how to human
        bobthebuilders 6y ago
        That's not a quote from me? I think you're just proving my point.
- sjwright 6y ago
  > I'll note that you didn't start your response here with pleasantries, and no one else has, either. There are obvious differences between expressing an opinion and asking others to do something for you. Understanding that distinction makes this apparent contradiction entirely explicable.
  - pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
    Actual problem: not understanding the distinction between a bug report and form meant for "asking others to do something for you".
    - sjwright 6y ago
      Actual problem: believing that the distinction between those two is relevant.
      - pwdisswordfish6 6y ago
        This is the second instance of an attempt on your part to use circular reasoning so that it might be impossible to argue with you. It's clear now that you're just here for the conflict, and not (sound) resolutions. This is a dead end.
        sjwright 6y ago
        If you can describe anything about my argument which soundly qualifies as circular, I'll concede all disagreements with you, accept that you're correct in everything you have said and I'll even donate AU$500 to a charity of your choice. > It's clear now that you're just here for the conflict Says the person who thinks that basic, pro forma civility requires a "bullshit budget."
- taneq 6y ago
  Hi, good evening, you seem like a dick. Bye now.
  - junon 6y ago
    24k rep on HN, you should know that's not how we converse here, regardless of whether or not you agree with GP.
    - taneq 6y ago
      I stand by my assessment of GP, but that's beside the point. You're right, and I apologise.
      - sjwright 6y ago
        I wouldn’t apologise. I strongly respect the social rules of hacker news but they are by no means perfect and tend to break down in the face of a well calibrated troll. This particular variant is the verbose non sequitur anti-pattern. It’s effective because it generally can’t be identified at a glance. It requires a lot of contextualised reading. This means it gets few down votes, the canonical sign of disapproval here.
scatters 6y ago
"Good morning" in chat is not a pleasantry. It is a demand for the other person to switch to synchronous communication and attend to their conversation ahead of everything else the other person has to deal with. Respect for others' humanity implies respecting their time first of all.
WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
There's a difference between having niceties and content in one message: > Good morning! When I foo the bar, I expect it to baz, as per documentation at <link>, but it seems to be drizzling instead. Could you please tell me if it's me doing something wrong, or there is a bug in bar that prevents me from fooing it? Thank you! Compare this with the typical annoying IM exchange that happens across multiple timezones (EU ↔ India seems to be the worst): <Mar 01 2021 05:59> Them: Hi <Mar 01 2021 10:00> Me: Hi, what's up? <Mar 02 2021 04:03> Them: Do you have a moment? <Mar 02 2021 10:00> Me: Yeah, what's your concern? <Mar 03 2021 04:20> Them: I have a question <Mar 03 2021 10:00> Me: What's the question? <Mar 04 2021 04:54> Them: I'm trying to foo the bar and it doesn't work Grrrrgggh! Four days! FOUR days pass and they are only starting to ask the damn question! Okay. Sometimes it's not so bad. Sometimes it's only two days wasted.
- rcxdude 6y ago
  Yeah, this is a really annoying habit in instant messangers, even without the long delays in response. I've just taken to not responding to messages like 'hi'. Either state what you want or I'm not going to interrupt my workflow to ask. (that said, I don't mind (and may appreciate) pleasentries included along with useful questions or information, even on bug reports, just don't add more round-trips for the sake of them).
- bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
  Ooof, never seen it that bad, but that would be really annoying and you shouldn't tolerate it. My rule is if the help I need isn't so urgent that it requires chat, then I'll send an email. Also if I'm doing something in response to their request then I'll always say what I'm doing when I do it, so they at least know that their request is being worked on. Kinda like Mav: Switching to guns Goose: Ok Mav: Firing! Goose Ok, hit? Mav: No - trying it again as sudo ...
- eropple 6y ago
  There absolutely is a difference between inefficient and efficient communication, and you're right to highlight it. There is no gap between efficient and pleasant communication, though, and attacking pleasantry as if its sin is inefficiency is pretty messed up. Like you say, that exchange is no less pleasant, and of course way more efficient, if it's one message with better information density. That takes some coaching, but the answer (and to be clear I don't think you're advocating for it) absolutely isn't "be a grouchy turd in the name of efficiency". (And arguably that should then be an email, but most folks have forgotten that email exists, so, yeah.)