4 ms·

Do you also not take Alan Turing's works seriously?

stjohnswarts 6y ago
This doesn't make sense. You can't argue with Turing's math and algorithmic discoveries/creations (unless you can prove them wrong) but you certainly can some of his flawed philosophies. QED False equivocation.
borepop 6y ago
Turing's work has some independent value, it's not just a mess of philosophical/moral opinions like Wallace is offering up in this speech. If nothing else, Wallace's suicide illustrates to me what a gulf there is between "saying things that sound wise" and actually living wisely. One has very little to do with the other.
- caslon 6y ago
  A suicide doesn't mean your life wasn't lived wisely. He was suffering from a clinically-diagnosed depressive disorder, was told to stop taking antidepressants by his own doctor, and was recommended to try electric shock as an alternative. His suicide was less "stupid man is sad" than "Wow, look! The medical industry isn't even trying to fix depression."
  - InvertedRhodium 6y ago
    Given that there topic seems to broadly be about happiness and personal satisfaction, you could argue that someone suffering from depression is either wholly unsuited to the task or someone with excellent perspective. I don't think it's overly surprising that suicide undermines your credibility on those topics with some people.
    - bckr 6y ago
      Yeah, I don't think the useful discussion is whether a wise person / person with wisdom would commit suicide, or whether a person who committed suicide could be considered wise. The useful discussion is "Is this person's way of thinking probably going to help me improve my life?"—if someone committed suicide, I would think twice about thinking similarly to that person. To illustrate why, I'm depressed. I don't have direct control over this. But I do have some control over what I think. If I bow to the thoughts "this life is not worth living", yeah, I become more likely to slit my wrists. But if I think "I'm not going to identify with these thoughts. I'm going to eat lunch and that will probably make me feel better", I think my life will be longer and better. Not saying you can think yourself out of clinical depression, but I'm going to be careful about what I decide to think, and who I'm going to model in my thinking.
booleandilemma 6y ago
This is completely different. Turing was a genius and one of the founders of computer science. DFW was kind of a loser, imho, who abused his girlfriend and her son.
ben509 6y ago
I discount Turing's works because of his suicide. I think the Turing award ought to be renamed. Consider all the love and respect directed at Robin Williams after he died. The perverse reality is that for someone in a suicidal frame of mind, that kind of love makes "I'd be better off dead" far more credible. I think the other extreme, outright condemning someone, probably doesn't work either, as it's liable to make a person with suicidal feelings feel trapped. So I settle for disapproval, that suicide is a permanent stain on someone's legacy, in the hope that it nudges someone to stick it out for another day.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

This doesn't make sense. You can't argue with Turing's math and algorithmic discoveries/creations (unless you can prove them wrong) but you certainly can some of his flawed philosophies. QED False equivocation.

borepop 6y ago

Turing's work has some independent value, it's not just a mess of philosophical/moral opinions like Wallace is offering up in this speech. If nothing else, Wallace's suicide illustrates to me what a gulf there is between "saying things that sound wise" and actually living wisely. One has very little to do with the other.

caslon 6y ago
A suicide doesn't mean your life wasn't lived wisely. He was suffering from a clinically-diagnosed depressive disorder, was told to stop taking antidepressants by his own doctor, and was recommended to try electric shock as an alternative. His suicide was less "stupid man is sad" than "Wow, look! The medical industry isn't even trying to fix depression."
- InvertedRhodium 6y ago
  Given that there topic seems to broadly be about happiness and personal satisfaction, you could argue that someone suffering from depression is either wholly unsuited to the task or someone with excellent perspective. I don't think it's overly surprising that suicide undermines your credibility on those topics with some people.
  - bckr 6y ago
    Yeah, I don't think the useful discussion is whether a wise person / person with wisdom would commit suicide, or whether a person who committed suicide could be considered wise. The useful discussion is "Is this person's way of thinking probably going to help me improve my life?"—if someone committed suicide, I would think twice about thinking similarly to that person. To illustrate why, I'm depressed. I don't have direct control over this. But I do have some control over what I think. If I bow to the thoughts "this life is not worth living", yeah, I become more likely to slit my wrists. But if I think "I'm not going to identify with these thoughts. I'm going to eat lunch and that will probably make me feel better", I think my life will be longer and better. Not saying you can think yourself out of clinical depression, but I'm going to be careful about what I decide to think, and who I'm going to model in my thinking.

booleandilemma 6y ago

This is completely different. Turing was a genius and one of the founders of computer science. DFW was kind of a loser, imho, who abused his girlfriend and her son.

ben509 6y ago

I discount Turing's works because of his suicide. I think the Turing award ought to be renamed. Consider all the love and respect directed at Robin Williams after he died. The perverse reality is that for someone in a suicidal frame of mind, that kind of love makes "I'd be better off dead" far more credible. I think the other extreme, outright condemning someone, probably doesn't work either, as it's liable to make a person with suicidal feelings feel trapped. So I settle for disapproval, that suicide is a permanent stain on someone's legacy, in the hope that it nudges someone to stick it out for another day.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]