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The problem with organized religion of all kinds is that it tends to obsess over a concept of eternal and immutable truth, rather than accepting the possibility

The problem with organized religion of all kinds is that it tends to obsess over a concept of eternal and immutable truth, rather than accepting the possibility (and likelihood) of a multitude of paths to truth and liberation. This leads to a sort of legalism that detracts from the original purpose of the religion. The original purpose of Shabbat in Judaism and Christianity is to devote one day out of seven to meditation and prayer, as well as to simulate the sinless state, in which there was no need for work, that existed before the Fall. There's nothing special about Saturday (or Sunday) as opposed to any other day, aside from the desire to have all observers recognize it on the same day. Before the modern era, the most common distraction from the meditative life was work, and hence the activities that are prohibited are those that were considered part of the "work" sphere in biblical times. Organized religion tends to calcify, leading to strict rules that allow no exceptions. Hence, the question asked is not, "Will using electricity distract from the meditative purpose of Shabbat?" but "Does electricity 'count' as a fire?" Of course, one can't single out Judaism here, because significant components of all the major religions devolve into the same debates.

sethg 18y ago
What is the source for your claim about "the original purpose of Shabbat"? I don't recall a line in the Bible telling people to mediate and pray on any particular day of the week, but I haven't exactly memorized the Bible and I'm certainly not well-read on the archeological evidence from that period.
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  The obligation to respect the Shabbat is one of the 10 Commandments, and is mentioned about 15 times in the old testament, mostly in the book of Exodus.
  - sethg 18y ago
    But in which of those 15 occasions does the Bible say to meditate and pray on Shabbat?
    - menloparkbum 18y ago
      It just says to rest. I don't think meditation is mentioned anywhere in any xtian or jewish holy book. Prayer, I don't know. I don't particularly care, either; all this information is from wikipedia.
concernedyid 18y ago
Mathematics obsesses over eternal and immutable truth, and, except for the choice of different axioms, does not accept "a multitude of paths to truth and liberation". Also, any sense of "original purpose" of religion you may have for either religion you mention is a construct from your perspective; neither Judaism nor Christianity indicates an "original purpose" for themselves at any point. Similarly, they do not indicate an "original purpose" for Shabbat; there is only a few repeated words surrounding the commandment to observe it. To say there is nothing special about Saturday implies that you have already entirely missed the point; it is only because of this tradition (or possibly the Babylonians, who may have had it first) that we use a seven day week at all. Actually, the tradition regarding what qualifies as work is significantly more specific than you seem to think; the 39 melochot are the categories of tasks involved in the construction and operation of the tabernacle--all work on which was specifically prohibited for Shabbat, so associated tasks are prohibited into modern times. All systems of thought tend to calcify over time, as the same concepts and results continue to be repeatedly verified; one can't single out religion in this regard, just because the major religions are among the eldest organized systems of thought.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
dangoldin 18y ago
I vaguely recall hearing that the purpose of avoiding work on Shabbat was to reproduce. You aren't allowed to work and you are stuck with your spouse. And religions seem to be fond of encouraging reproduction.
- ars 18y ago
  Cute idea, but not correct. Being with your spouse is encouraged, but not because of reproduction, but rather because it's enjoyable, and that is one of the things that Shabbat is about: rest, and enjoyment.
  - dangoldin 18y ago
    But you must admit a part of enjoyment is the act of reproduction.
    - ars 18y ago
      Maybe you didn't understand what 'being with your spouse' means. I was trying to be delicate. I was trying to say that because it's enjoyable, simply being with your spouse is encouraged, even if reproduction is not going to happen (not the right time, already pregnant, too old, etc).
ars 18y ago
a: There is no "meditative purpose of Shabbat". b: The rule was never: forbid things that are work. Work is a poor translation of the hebrew concept. Things that are forbidden are things that create things, or modify them. Like burning something, or building. The idea is to emulate God - God stopped creating the world on the 7th day, so we too should not create things on the 7th day. What counts as creating for God and for us are different, but the idea is the same. c: There is something special about the particular 7th day: it's the same day that was seventh after creation. The weeks have been counted continuously for a good many thousands of years. So to ask '"Will using electricity distract from the meditative purpose of Shabbat?" instead of "Does electricity 'count' as a fire?"' completely misses the point of Shabbat. You think you are catching the point, but instead you missed it. And BTW the answer to the question is: yes it counts as fire because using electricity causes a fire in the power plant to be increased. But the electricity itself is not fire.
- mhb 18y ago
  And BTW the answer to the question is: yes it counts as fire because using electricity causes a fire in the power plant to be increased. But the electricity itself is not fire. Orthodox Jews for nuclear power!!
- noonespecial 18y ago
  Actual questions asked a a building site my dad was at in Israel. 1) Is a regenerative break in an elevator doing work, even if the power is not fed back into the grid? Accepted answer: No, as long as its not fed back, but wasted as heat instead in a large resistor. Solution : A special system was constructed to divert the regenerative power into a large nickel-chromium element and not fed back into the grid for just that day. This heat was vented outside so that it wouldn't accidentally do work by heating the building in winter. 2) Does energy created in the power plant (from burning coal) count if its stored in a battery and then removed during Shabbat? Answer: No, as long as the fire part happened some other day. Solution: Large batteries were installed with inverters to feed critical systems during this day and were only charged during the week. Of course, as mentioned, non Jews were hired to press buttons, open doors, and perform other actions during this time as well. The moral of the story is that it cost a lot more, and takes a lot longer to build a building like this! I believe in God, and I don't want to disparage any man's religion but I think personally that God is not overly impressed by storing the energy in a battery so we can use it guilt free on the holy day...

sethg 18y ago

What is the source for your claim about "the original purpose of Shabbat"? I don't recall a line in the Bible telling people to mediate and pray on any particular day of the week, but I haven't exactly memorized the Bible and I'm certainly not well-read on the archeological evidence from that period.

menloparkbum 18y ago
The obligation to respect the Shabbat is one of the 10 Commandments, and is mentioned about 15 times in the old testament, mostly in the book of Exodus.
- sethg 18y ago
  But in which of those 15 occasions does the Bible say to meditate and pray on Shabbat?
  - menloparkbum 18y ago
    It just says to rest. I don't think meditation is mentioned anywhere in any xtian or jewish holy book. Prayer, I don't know. I don't particularly care, either; all this information is from wikipedia.

concernedyid 18y ago

Mathematics obsesses over eternal and immutable truth, and, except for the choice of different axioms, does not accept "a multitude of paths to truth and liberation". Also, any sense of "original purpose" of religion you may have for either religion you mention is a construct from your perspective; neither Judaism nor Christianity indicates an "original purpose" for themselves at any point. Similarly, they do not indicate an "original purpose" for Shabbat; there is only a few repeated words surrounding the commandment to observe it. To say there is nothing special about Saturday implies that you have already entirely missed the point; it is only because of this tradition (or possibly the Babylonians, who may have had it first) that we use a seven day week at all. Actually, the tradition regarding what qualifies as work is significantly more specific than you seem to think; the 39 melochot are the categories of tasks involved in the construction and operation of the tabernacle--all work on which was specifically prohibited for Shabbat, so associated tasks are prohibited into modern times. All systems of thought tend to calcify over time, as the same concepts and results continue to be repeatedly verified; one can't single out religion in this regard, just because the major religions are among the eldest organized systems of thought.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

dangoldin 18y ago

I vaguely recall hearing that the purpose of avoiding work on Shabbat was to reproduce. You aren't allowed to work and you are stuck with your spouse. And religions seem to be fond of encouraging reproduction.

ars 18y ago
Cute idea, but not correct. Being with your spouse is encouraged, but not because of reproduction, but rather because it's enjoyable, and that is one of the things that Shabbat is about: rest, and enjoyment.
- dangoldin 18y ago
  But you must admit a part of enjoyment is the act of reproduction.
  - ars 18y ago
    Maybe you didn't understand what 'being with your spouse' means. I was trying to be delicate. I was trying to say that because it's enjoyable, simply being with your spouse is encouraged, even if reproduction is not going to happen (not the right time, already pregnant, too old, etc).

ars 18y ago

a: There is no "meditative purpose of Shabbat". b: The rule was never: forbid things that are work. Work is a poor translation of the hebrew concept. Things that are forbidden are things that create things, or modify them. Like burning something, or building. The idea is to emulate God - God stopped creating the world on the 7th day, so we too should not create things on the 7th day. What counts as creating for God and for us are different, but the idea is the same. c: There is something special about the particular 7th day: it's the same day that was seventh after creation. The weeks have been counted continuously for a good many thousands of years. So to ask '"Will using electricity distract from the meditative purpose of Shabbat?" instead of "Does electricity 'count' as a fire?"' completely misses the point of Shabbat. You think you are catching the point, but instead you missed it. And BTW the answer to the question is: yes it counts as fire because using electricity causes a fire in the power plant to be increased. But the electricity itself is not fire.

mhb 18y ago
And BTW the answer to the question is: yes it counts as fire because using electricity causes a fire in the power plant to be increased. But the electricity itself is not fire. Orthodox Jews for nuclear power!!
noonespecial 18y ago
Actual questions asked a a building site my dad was at in Israel. 1) Is a regenerative break in an elevator doing work, even if the power is not fed back into the grid? Accepted answer: No, as long as its not fed back, but wasted as heat instead in a large resistor. Solution : A special system was constructed to divert the regenerative power into a large nickel-chromium element and not fed back into the grid for just that day. This heat was vented outside so that it wouldn't accidentally do work by heating the building in winter. 2) Does energy created in the power plant (from burning coal) count if its stored in a battery and then removed during Shabbat? Answer: No, as long as the fire part happened some other day. Solution: Large batteries were installed with inverters to feed critical systems during this day and were only charged during the week. Of course, as mentioned, non Jews were hired to press buttons, open doors, and perform other actions during this time as well. The moral of the story is that it cost a lot more, and takes a lot longer to build a building like this! I believe in God, and I don't want to disparage any man's religion but I think personally that God is not overly impressed by storing the energy in a battery so we can use it guilt free on the holy day...