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Seems like the cars didn't fall that far short, but I think the implied grievance is that Tesla is systematically optimistic about the range of their cars where

Seems like the cars didn't fall that far short, but I think the implied grievance is that Tesla is systematically optimistic about the range of their cars where other automakers (Mini Cooper, Porsche, etc) make very conservative estimates. The "surprise" being that published specifications like driving range are really marketing tools, and some companies are more aggressive than others.

cool_dude85 6y ago
If I was a butcher selling you a pound of meat, and "surprisingly" was shorting you 10% on a consistent basis, would you say I was just doing more aggressive marketing than my competitors?
- tlb 6y ago
  Different industries have different standards. Hard disks are several % under advertised capacity. Audio amplifiers ratings are completely disconnected from reality. Packaged meat at places like Wal-Mart contain between 6 and 12% injected saline solution, so what you describe is already common practice.
- xeromal 6y ago
  EPA estimates are in no way equivalent to weight. lol. Bad analogy. Edit: Yeah, I messed up my point. I was just responding to OP that getting less meat than what you paid for at a store is not equivalent to not getting the EPA rated mileage on your car. No one can really reproduce the EPA range without going to the EPA's test area.
  - jsight 6y ago
    In some ways they are. Run the test in one exact way and those are the results that you'd expect. Run it differently and the results will vary in fairly predictable ways too.
    - xeromal 6y ago
      Yeah, I messed up my point. I was just responding to OP that getting less meat than what you paid for at a store is equivalent to not getting the EPA rated mileage on your car. No one can really reproduce the EPA range without going to the EPA's test area.
      - jsight 6y ago
        To be fair, its easier than that. You can get a really close approximation just by using their speeds on a level closed track, ideally on a fair-weather day.
- jsight 6y ago
  No. The analogy would be that every butcher sells meat by the lb, but some include an extra .1 lb, and others include an extra .05 lb. And then a third party comes along and calls you deceptive because they measured yours at .9lb when measured on an airplane flying a parabolic trajectory, but the others still measured 1.0 lb. Which one was doing good marketing? The ones that gave you what you paid for? The ones that gave you a little extra? Or the ones that got lots of clicks for running a different test? Maybe they all were...
- robbmorganf 6y ago
  Haha, or e.g. "Welcome to our gas station. We're optimistic that you're getting the number of gallons that you paid for." But in reality I think the other responses get it right. I would say it's a marketing decision to publish the range in best case and worst case. In this case, the other automakers are publishing closer to the worst case or average case, while Tesla publishes best case. By comparison, the mass of meat doesn't really have a best or worst case (unless you market "our packaged meat weighs 1lb when travelling at 0.9c!!")
newacct583 6y ago
> I think the implied grievance is that Tesla is systematically optimistic about the range of their cars where other automakers (Mini Cooper, Porsche, etc) make very conservative estimates Seems like it would be a rather better article had it included facts detailing that allegation rather than just implying it. FWIW: I don't doubt that Tesla spins their numbers, but then automakers have been cheating on mileage statistics with testing conditions for decades. Is this really so different?
- xiphias2 6y ago
  The big difference is that with electric car ranges it's even more important for the buyer. People care about that extra range so much, that it's in the name of the car type (long range).
  - newacct583 6y ago
    The actual range numbers (like, the real value of how far the car can go between charges) are almost universally in Tesla's favor here, though. The article is about the delta between the advertisement and the result, not the literal value being delivered to the customer.
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      The question is how much is the difference. I really really like the Taycan 4S, but if it has a much worse range than a Model 3 LR, I go with the later one (Model S is not available in Europe until September :( ). Of course the final price matters as well. It's just that highway range is an important part of the comparision.
    - jsight 6y ago
      Yeah, I've been criticizing the article for that. Its missing the forest for the trees. The real range matters a great deal, as do other metrics like miles added per minute charging. This report focuses on the least relevant bit.
stcredzero 6y ago
Tesla Daily did an interview with one of the Edmunds people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb1toreNTrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb1toreNTrU Rob Mauer's early objections came from Edmunds knowingly introducing variations in conditions which would disadvantage the Teslas (like lower temperatures) but not being very clear about that. Also, Edmunds originally did this thing, where they didn't account for the "zero remaining" buffer. Teslas put more of their capacity under the reading "zero remaining," to encourage low battery level drivers to seek charging sooner. Edmunds also had to be called out for that.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Temperatures in the 40s are not "low temperatures." It has been in the 40s at night in Los Angeles for the past month, and that is in one of the most favorable locations for EVs. Tesla absolutely should be called out for giving range estimates that require unicorn temperatures. Edmunds testing more accurately reflects real world usage, aka, what a normal person would get if they weren't trying to artificially goose their measurements.
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    Yeah, but to do it properly the "real world" aspects need to be the same across all of the tested cars.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      Edmunds tested all of the cars the same way: on roads, highways, and freeways in the LA area. It tested each car using the same settings for A/C, etc. Tesla simply failed to live up to its marketing claims. Again. Even after Edmunds re-tested the vehicle to accomodate some of Tesla's requests. (And in fact, Edmunds notes that no Tesla has ever reached or exceeded its EPA rating in its tests, which is unique among all automakers, ICE or EV.) In contrast, most of the other EVs outperformed their stated EPA ranges, and even with zero range buffers Tesla still underperformed its EPA ratings, while the other vehicles simply exceeded their EPA ratings even more once their zero-range buffers were included. How does Edmunds conduct its testing? The roads Edmunds drives on specific road routes that cover both highway and city driving around the greater Los Angeles area. We aim for a mix of 60% city driving and 40% highway, assuming that most electric vehicle owners will likely spend more time in stop-and-go traffic than they will on the open highway. Since no electric vehicle has exactly the same range, the route length is adapted to suit each vehicle. The methodology In EPA tests, a vehicle is run in the default settings at startup. If there are more efficient drive modes available, or if you can increase the level of regenerative braking, but the vehicle doesn't default to these settings, they won't be utilized. Edmunds' standard practice is to use the most efficient drive mode as long as it doesn't affect safety or practical comfort levels, such as deactivating the climate control system or significantly reducing power for accelerating or maintaining appropriate highway speeds. We run with windows up and the climate control set to auto at 72 degrees, and we maximize regenerative braking during stops. We follow the posted speed limits and keep within 5 mph of them, traffic and conditions permitting.

cool_dude85 6y ago

If I was a butcher selling you a pound of meat, and "surprisingly" was shorting you 10% on a consistent basis, would you say I was just doing more aggressive marketing than my competitors?

tlb 6y ago
Different industries have different standards. Hard disks are several % under advertised capacity. Audio amplifiers ratings are completely disconnected from reality. Packaged meat at places like Wal-Mart contain between 6 and 12% injected saline solution, so what you describe is already common practice.
xeromal 6y ago
EPA estimates are in no way equivalent to weight. lol. Bad analogy. Edit: Yeah, I messed up my point. I was just responding to OP that getting less meat than what you paid for at a store is not equivalent to not getting the EPA rated mileage on your car. No one can really reproduce the EPA range without going to the EPA's test area.
- jsight 6y ago
  In some ways they are. Run the test in one exact way and those are the results that you'd expect. Run it differently and the results will vary in fairly predictable ways too.
  - xeromal 6y ago
    Yeah, I messed up my point. I was just responding to OP that getting less meat than what you paid for at a store is equivalent to not getting the EPA rated mileage on your car. No one can really reproduce the EPA range without going to the EPA's test area.
    - jsight 6y ago
      To be fair, its easier than that. You can get a really close approximation just by using their speeds on a level closed track, ideally on a fair-weather day.
jsight 6y ago
No. The analogy would be that every butcher sells meat by the lb, but some include an extra .1 lb, and others include an extra .05 lb. And then a third party comes along and calls you deceptive because they measured yours at .9lb when measured on an airplane flying a parabolic trajectory, but the others still measured 1.0 lb. Which one was doing good marketing? The ones that gave you what you paid for? The ones that gave you a little extra? Or the ones that got lots of clicks for running a different test? Maybe they all were...
robbmorganf 6y ago
Haha, or e.g. "Welcome to our gas station. We're optimistic that you're getting the number of gallons that you paid for." But in reality I think the other responses get it right. I would say it's a marketing decision to publish the range in best case and worst case. In this case, the other automakers are publishing closer to the worst case or average case, while Tesla publishes best case. By comparison, the mass of meat doesn't really have a best or worst case (unless you market "our packaged meat weighs 1lb when travelling at 0.9c!!")

newacct583 6y ago

> I think the implied grievance is that Tesla is systematically optimistic about the range of their cars where other automakers (Mini Cooper, Porsche, etc) make very conservative estimates Seems like it would be a rather better article had it included facts detailing that allegation rather than just implying it. FWIW: I don't doubt that Tesla spins their numbers, but then automakers have been cheating on mileage statistics with testing conditions for decades. Is this really so different?

xiphias2 6y ago
The big difference is that with electric car ranges it's even more important for the buyer. People care about that extra range so much, that it's in the name of the car type (long range).
- newacct583 6y ago
  The actual range numbers (like, the real value of how far the car can go between charges) are almost universally in Tesla's favor here, though. The article is about the delta between the advertisement and the result, not the literal value being delivered to the customer.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    The question is how much is the difference. I really really like the Taycan 4S, but if it has a much worse range than a Model 3 LR, I go with the later one (Model S is not available in Europe until September :( ). Of course the final price matters as well. It's just that highway range is an important part of the comparision.
  - jsight 6y ago
    Yeah, I've been criticizing the article for that. Its missing the forest for the trees. The real range matters a great deal, as do other metrics like miles added per minute charging. This report focuses on the least relevant bit.

stcredzero 6y ago

Tesla Daily did an interview with one of the Edmunds people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb1toreNTrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb1toreNTrU Rob Mauer's early objections came from Edmunds knowingly introducing variations in conditions which would disadvantage the Teslas (like lower temperatures) but not being very clear about that. Also, Edmunds originally did this thing, where they didn't account for the "zero remaining" buffer. Teslas put more of their capacity under the reading "zero remaining," to encourage low battery level drivers to seek charging sooner. Edmunds also had to be called out for that.

gamblor956 6y ago
Temperatures in the 40s are not "low temperatures." It has been in the 40s at night in Los Angeles for the past month, and that is in one of the most favorable locations for EVs. Tesla absolutely should be called out for giving range estimates that require unicorn temperatures. Edmunds testing more accurately reflects real world usage, aka, what a normal person would get if they weren't trying to artificially goose their measurements.
- stcredzero 6y ago
  Yeah, but to do it properly the "real world" aspects need to be the same across all of the tested cars.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    Edmunds tested all of the cars the same way: on roads, highways, and freeways in the LA area. It tested each car using the same settings for A/C, etc. Tesla simply failed to live up to its marketing claims. Again. Even after Edmunds re-tested the vehicle to accomodate some of Tesla's requests. (And in fact, Edmunds notes that no Tesla has ever reached or exceeded its EPA rating in its tests, which is unique among all automakers, ICE or EV.) In contrast, most of the other EVs outperformed their stated EPA ranges, and even with zero range buffers Tesla still underperformed its EPA ratings, while the other vehicles simply exceeded their EPA ratings even more once their zero-range buffers were included. How does Edmunds conduct its testing? The roads Edmunds drives on specific road routes that cover both highway and city driving around the greater Los Angeles area. We aim for a mix of 60% city driving and 40% highway, assuming that most electric vehicle owners will likely spend more time in stop-and-go traffic than they will on the open highway. Since no electric vehicle has exactly the same range, the route length is adapted to suit each vehicle. The methodology In EPA tests, a vehicle is run in the default settings at startup. If there are more efficient drive modes available, or if you can increase the level of regenerative braking, but the vehicle doesn't default to these settings, they won't be utilized. Edmunds' standard practice is to use the most efficient drive mode as long as it doesn't affect safety or practical comfort levels, such as deactivating the climate control system or significantly reducing power for accelerating or maintaining appropriate highway speeds. We run with windows up and the climate control set to auto at 72 degrees, and we maximize regenerative braking during stops. We follow the posted speed limits and keep within 5 mph of them, traffic and conditions permitting.