6 ms·

How this is being reported annoys me. I read the abstract of the paper. I do not believe the scientists studying this take such a surprised perspective, but are

How this is being reported annoys me. I read the abstract of the paper. I do not believe the scientists studying this take such a surprised perspective, but are studying extremely technical specifics. I get the need to push the paper out to get some clicks but science journalism needs to be better. "May dream!" Sheesh. I don't have a dog anymore, but I've had a couple that clearly dream. I have several cats that also clearly dream. I suspect my leopard geckos dream because they definitely take a lot of naps. I'm all for this type of study and it appears to be rigorous and interesting. I also believe cephalopods have complex social, spatial, and possibly symbolic dreams like humans have that cats and dogs may not have. But if it sleeps, it dreams. The idea that humans are so far from animals that we can't allow them complex lives full of the same wonder that we allow ourselves is a stupid separation that inhibits understanding and reporting that doesn't equate animal and human consciousness is a stepping stone to determining which humans are human, which historically has worked out poorly. A human exclusive understanding of consciousness is a great way to never be able to talk to our resident or extra-planetary dream having compatriots. The article isn't explicitly surprised, but it really is worded like a feigned surprise when it could be framed in a less annoying way. Maybe I just need a nap.

monster_group 6y ago
Agreed. I once read a "science article" on whales. The article claimed "since whales are not humans, they cannot be lonely and therefore..." blah blah. I closed the article, immediately after I read that statement. Pretentiousness of humans is mind boggling.
- stuntkite 6y ago
  Like giant mammals that have something close to the internet via aquatic sound transmission since before we got out of trees can't be a beautiful and complex psychic profusion. They must be chumps! These assholes didn't even invent money! Something something Star Trek IV.
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    If they had the internet before us, they could have just skipped the metal and paper money steps and skipped right to a group maintained ledger.
    - MauranKilom 6y ago
      Who says they didn't? Maybe it's so decentralized that humans can't even see it!
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  My problem is more so that “being lonely” or “dreaming” is not something that has an actual definition. In research, various different ad hoc definitions may be provided that are then measured, but these definitions run apart in different research that deals with it, and so all measure a different thing. I once read research that defined “level of attractiveness" ad hoc as “the distance at which the participants place their chairs next to each other when asked to sit next to each other”, ehh, yes well... For the sake of research, dreaming in humans is often purely defined as the stage of r.e.m. sleep, whatever the experiences the human may tell might be. The other problem is, of course, that very often, the ad hoc definition chosen, can very easily be so chosen in support of the conclusion that the research wishes emerge.
SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
I think you may need a nap. First line of the article: > Octopuses have alternating periods of "quiet" and "active" sleep that make their rest similar to that of mammals, despite being separated by more than 500 million years of evolution. The article is aware that cats and dogs and other mammals dream. The fact that cephalapods, who are obviously very alien compared to us, do is the new bit.
- stuntkite 6y ago
  Fair. I am actually a dog and have not fully learned to read. I apologize for my bullshit.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    Is this a new paradigm that we've discovered? Software devs are dogs and lawyers are cats (despite their insistence they are not)?
    - stuntkite 6y ago
      Who told you I write software? The cats are definitely liars.... I mean lawyers. Whatever, but they always get me on technicalities.
the_local_host 6y ago
I think it would be fairly shocking to find that something like dreaming would evolve in two species whose most recent common ancestor didn't dream. To have two non-closely related species implement sophisticated cognition in a way that overlaps so much suggests that intelligence and consciousness, or at least the kinds that we experience, doesn't or can't take a wide variety of forms. It's not surprising that a dog dreams; there's a dog analogue for most human things, right down to the eyebrows. But an octopus? Wow.
- stuntkite 6y ago
  I fully admit that I didn't read the first line of the article because I need a nap, but I stand by the fact that I think all things that sleep dream. I would not be surprised if we find out one day if we are around for a bit longer that trees dream. They definitely sleep and I've heard them say they make plans. In all seriousness though, I like Douglas Hofstadter's consciousness cone. If it is life, it has a mirage of consciousness. I think his term "mirage" doesn't fully illustrate the holographic nature of it, but I don't quite have a better grip on it than that myself. If it has a rest period likely where it sorts what it's done and turns that into new patterns... well, that's a dream to me. I think we will see dreaming things anywhere we find life in the cosmos. I think it goes all the way down and is fundamental. The results from this paper are very exciting to me in that context. They illustrate my assumptions. I think it's important research for sure. I watched octopus sleep and change color in person at an aquarium in Seattle. A great pacific octopus. I've also been there when they were awake just before feeding and had one all wadded up watching me through the glass waiting for their feeder. They are incredible.
  - DickingAround 6y ago
    Do trees actually 'sleep'? Like they don't have neural centers that we consider to be brain-like, that I know of. Further, just defining the concept of sleep is a little tricky and I'm not aware of anything like sleep-ish brain waves, or not moving for a long period of time that we consider sleep-like in trees. So this idea of sleep evolving in two different species whose ancestor didn't sleep is very interesting.
DethNinja 6y ago
Agreed, also to add I got a dog and a hamster and I’m 99% sure even my hamster dreams regularly. I think humanity is making a mistake by thinking there is a huge difference between consciousness of other animals and humans.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  I had a biology professor I college quite adamant the dogs definitely did not dream. “Their brains aren’t complex enough”. I asked if he had any pets, he said no. That was the end of that conversation for me.
r00fus 6y ago
On one hand I agree that the human-exceptional bias that seems to pervade society is sad, and we should be over it given how well we know our pets. On the other hand, it's nice to see more news exposure of views that animals are similar to humans. On the gripping hand, there's a reason for this bias - it's inherent part of human (and possibly animal) nature - to justify our superiority. It's also useful for certain groups in power to keep these biases strong.
whereistimbo 6y ago
Oh my. I used to have a cat named 'Fish' and when he slept, I brought him a medicine to his nose and he was showing a discomfort reaction while he slept. Fun times.
astura 6y ago
How can I tell when my cats are dreaming?
anonytrary 6y ago
Octopuses are some of the most intelligent creatures and I, too, have seen dogs dream. So, it really does not surprise me that an octopus dreams. Or that really any organism with a brain can dream. Oversimplification, but dreams are just a certain form of brain activity during sleep. If an animal sleeps, I would wager that it probably has some form of "dream". There's no reason to assume that other similar species don't dream. Do other species dream about the same stuff we dream about? Probably not exactly, but I imagine their dreams are a rearrangement of what their brain typically perceives on a daily basis. Maybe an octopus dream consists mainly of digging in the sand at the bottom of the sea and feeling nice and cool and safe, because that is their day-to-day experience. So I guess what bothers me is the way the article is framed -- as if another species "dreaming" is somehow completely unusual. It's very anthropocentric, I suppose. I've seen gorillas, dolphins, and monkeys do some extremely smart shit. There's something going on there, and I figured this was something everyone has accepted.
canadianfella 6y ago
Octopuses and dogs (or lizards) are not closely related at all. Maybe you should be more surprised.

monster_group 6y ago

Agreed. I once read a "science article" on whales. The article claimed "since whales are not humans, they cannot be lonely and therefore..." blah blah. I closed the article, immediately after I read that statement. Pretentiousness of humans is mind boggling.

stuntkite 6y ago
Like giant mammals that have something close to the internet via aquatic sound transmission since before we got out of trees can't be a beautiful and complex psychic profusion. They must be chumps! These assholes didn't even invent money! Something something Star Trek IV.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  If they had the internet before us, they could have just skipped the metal and paper money steps and skipped right to a group maintained ledger.
  - MauranKilom 6y ago
    Who says they didn't? Maybe it's so decentralized that humans can't even see it!
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
My problem is more so that “being lonely” or “dreaming” is not something that has an actual definition. In research, various different ad hoc definitions may be provided that are then measured, but these definitions run apart in different research that deals with it, and so all measure a different thing. I once read research that defined “level of attractiveness" ad hoc as “the distance at which the participants place their chairs next to each other when asked to sit next to each other”, ehh, yes well... For the sake of research, dreaming in humans is often purely defined as the stage of r.e.m. sleep, whatever the experiences the human may tell might be. The other problem is, of course, that very often, the ad hoc definition chosen, can very easily be so chosen in support of the conclusion that the research wishes emerge.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago

I think you may need a nap. First line of the article: > Octopuses have alternating periods of "quiet" and "active" sleep that make their rest similar to that of mammals, despite being separated by more than 500 million years of evolution. The article is aware that cats and dogs and other mammals dream. The fact that cephalapods, who are obviously very alien compared to us, do is the new bit.

stuntkite 6y ago
Fair. I am actually a dog and have not fully learned to read. I apologize for my bullshit.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  Is this a new paradigm that we've discovered? Software devs are dogs and lawyers are cats (despite their insistence they are not)?
  - stuntkite 6y ago
    Who told you I write software? The cats are definitely liars.... I mean lawyers. Whatever, but they always get me on technicalities.

the_local_host 6y ago

I think it would be fairly shocking to find that something like dreaming would evolve in two species whose most recent common ancestor didn't dream. To have two non-closely related species implement sophisticated cognition in a way that overlaps so much suggests that intelligence and consciousness, or at least the kinds that we experience, doesn't or can't take a wide variety of forms. It's not surprising that a dog dreams; there's a dog analogue for most human things, right down to the eyebrows. But an octopus? Wow.

stuntkite 6y ago
I fully admit that I didn't read the first line of the article because I need a nap, but I stand by the fact that I think all things that sleep dream. I would not be surprised if we find out one day if we are around for a bit longer that trees dream. They definitely sleep and I've heard them say they make plans. In all seriousness though, I like Douglas Hofstadter's consciousness cone. If it is life, it has a mirage of consciousness. I think his term "mirage" doesn't fully illustrate the holographic nature of it, but I don't quite have a better grip on it than that myself. If it has a rest period likely where it sorts what it's done and turns that into new patterns... well, that's a dream to me. I think we will see dreaming things anywhere we find life in the cosmos. I think it goes all the way down and is fundamental. The results from this paper are very exciting to me in that context. They illustrate my assumptions. I think it's important research for sure. I watched octopus sleep and change color in person at an aquarium in Seattle. A great pacific octopus. I've also been there when they were awake just before feeding and had one all wadded up watching me through the glass waiting for their feeder. They are incredible.
- DickingAround 6y ago
  Do trees actually 'sleep'? Like they don't have neural centers that we consider to be brain-like, that I know of. Further, just defining the concept of sleep is a little tricky and I'm not aware of anything like sleep-ish brain waves, or not moving for a long period of time that we consider sleep-like in trees. So this idea of sleep evolving in two different species whose ancestor didn't sleep is very interesting.

DethNinja 6y ago

Agreed, also to add I got a dog and a hamster and I’m 99% sure even my hamster dreams regularly. I think humanity is making a mistake by thinking there is a huge difference between consciousness of other animals and humans.

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
I had a biology professor I college quite adamant the dogs definitely did not dream. “Their brains aren’t complex enough”. I asked if he had any pets, he said no. That was the end of that conversation for me.

r00fus 6y ago

On one hand I agree that the human-exceptional bias that seems to pervade society is sad, and we should be over it given how well we know our pets. On the other hand, it's nice to see more news exposure of views that animals are similar to humans. On the gripping hand, there's a reason for this bias - it's inherent part of human (and possibly animal) nature - to justify our superiority. It's also useful for certain groups in power to keep these biases strong.

whereistimbo 6y ago

Oh my. I used to have a cat named 'Fish' and when he slept, I brought him a medicine to his nose and he was showing a discomfort reaction while he slept. Fun times.

astura 6y ago

How can I tell when my cats are dreaming?

anonytrary 6y ago

Octopuses are some of the most intelligent creatures and I, too, have seen dogs dream. So, it really does not surprise me that an octopus dreams. Or that really any organism with a brain can dream. Oversimplification, but dreams are just a certain form of brain activity during sleep. If an animal sleeps, I would wager that it probably has some form of "dream". There's no reason to assume that other similar species don't dream. Do other species dream about the same stuff we dream about? Probably not exactly, but I imagine their dreams are a rearrangement of what their brain typically perceives on a daily basis. Maybe an octopus dream consists mainly of digging in the sand at the bottom of the sea and feeling nice and cool and safe, because that is their day-to-day experience. So I guess what bothers me is the way the article is framed -- as if another species "dreaming" is somehow completely unusual. It's very anthropocentric, I suppose. I've seen gorillas, dolphins, and monkeys do some extremely smart shit. There's something going on there, and I figured this was something everyone has accepted.

canadianfella 6y ago

Octopuses and dogs (or lizards) are not closely related at all. Maybe you should be more surprised.