5 ms·

Ah yes, the old 'ephesians is mysogyny' out-of-context quote, which always manages to completely omit the lines which follow: Husbands, love your wives, as Chr

by cat199 6y ago

Ah yes, the old 'ephesians is mysogyny' out-of-context quote, which always manages to completely omit the lines which follow: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.1 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 o“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. won't get into the others, i'm quite sure there are cohesive rebukes / contextualization elsewhere

kaesar14 6y ago
How does saying a husband should respect and love his wife mean that wives having to submit to their husbands isn't misogynistic? Yes, treat them well, but women must bow to their husbands in all decisions. It's a clear reinforcement of a power dynamic that ultimately means men control all the power in society.
- codycraven 6y ago
  I'm one of the fundamentalists everyone here seems to hate. My wife is a very strong willed person and she does submit to my decisions (never because I ask or demand it) but because we see Christ submit to the will of the father. Just as I submit to Christ. For clarity, I in no way rule over my wife, and am in no way of more value than her. The Bible makes it clear that all people are of the utmost value because they are made in the image of God. For additional context, yes my wife submits to me, but I make no decisions without her consent. I don't even buy a $5 item off Amazon without talking to her. My Biblical role is to serve my wife and family which I'm thrilled to do each day, just as we see Jesus serve his disciples when he washes their feet. What I'm trying to get to is that please do not mistake a fundamental view of the Bible as misogyny. Any teaching or text can be cherry picked without context to make any view look evil and cruel.
  - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
    I'm confused. You say your wife submits to you, then you provide examples of how that is not the dynamic in your home.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    So your wife submits to you, but she also independently makes decisions which you come to an agreement on? That's great for your family, does that mean a family where the wife makes all the decisions and controls the power is immoral?
  - tpush 6y ago
    Your description of the dynamic between you and your wife is incoherent. You assert that she submits to you, but then you say that you make no decisions without her consent. So when she does not give her consent, she doesn't submit to you? Or does she simply always gives her consent, because the submission to you is a predicate. But then asking for her consent is a complete sham, a pretense to give her some agency in your mind. Irrespective of those contradictions however, a social dynamic in which the woman must axiomatically submit to the man is always inherently misogynistic no matter the justifications, be they religious or not.
    - codycraven 6y ago
      Sorry, rereading my post doesn't really make the dynamic clear and I'm not sure I could do it justice without having a dialog, but I'll attempt it. First, neither of us make purchasing nor time commitment decisions without checking with each other, my last comment made it appear there's a large imbalance in the relationship with her making all decisions. Our natural dynamics are that I operate on a system of respect, and she operates on a system of love. Yet the Bible calls us to do the opposite, I am to act in love, and she in respect (basically showing each other care in the way we best receive it). Earlier in our marriage, I was really bad at showing her love as she received it (acts of service and giving her verbal feedback to her opinions and thoughts --- sometimes I still fail, but I get better as we grow). She was bad at showing respect (when she didn't feel loved/heard she would yell). Regarding her choosing to submit, it's a motivation/outlook more than anything. When we are discussing a decision, she most always asks what I think we should do first. She will then give her thoughts on the topic and then leaves the decision up to me. There have of course been times where I end up making decisions that don't end up being the best in hindsight, but she never comes back and throws it in my face, because she chose to submit to my decision. Since it's easy to say something that is misconstrued in text, I do want to be clear I never lord over my wife. I never demand that she submit to me, she chooses to do that on her own. Hopefully that helps a little, I'm sure it's still probably unclear, my mom (who is quite left leaning and a feminist) doesn't grasp the Biblical concept of submission (thinking it means being weak and timid) and doesn't feel women should submit. Although she admires my wife's and my relationship, even though it differs from her views and has zero concern that both my daughters are raised in a household where the wife submits because the leadership is carried out with love and patience.
- f154hfds 6y ago
  It's hard for me to see how you're reading Ephesians 5 in good faith. Wives submit to your husbands, husbands sacrifice your lives for your wives (like how Jesus ya know, was crucified for his Church). And you read this as misogynistic? This is not by far the most problematic Pauline passage in terms of male/female roles. Taken at face value this is some pretty deep advice for how to have a functioning marriage where two people need to make decisions for their family and don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on everything.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    Yes, the husband in a family making all the decisions as long as they respect their wife is for sure misogynistic. Your interpretation of this being advice for a family to function even when they don't see eye to eye everything makes no sense to me. So if a man and woman in a marriage don't see eye to eye on an issue, the man makes the decision as long as he's kind to his wife? A wife may have her opinion, but really she has to submit in all things to their husband? I'm all for husbands loving their wives, but maybe text that clearly says that men have the power of decision making in a household could be interpreted as meaning...men have the power in a relationship.
    - f154hfds 6y ago
      Perhaps we're working with two different definitions of misogyny? "hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny Where does power come into it exactly?
      - kaesar14 6y ago
        Power has everything to do with prejudice. Divinely ordaining men with the power of the household is prejudice against women.
        f154hfds 6y ago
        'Power' in the Christian context is quite a lot different from your impression I think: > And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45 To read Ephesians 5 without this in the background is totally misconstruing the text.
- prewett 6y ago
  The husband is to love his wife as he would himself; moreso, actually, he is to love his wife in the way Christ loved the church--who sacrificed his life for the well-being of the church (namely so that we could have an intimate relationship with God). It is with this understand of what a husband is that the wife submits to the husband. Submission is not unquestioning obedience, unless you insist on taking the most fundamentalist interpretation. And a husband that insists on unquestioning obedience is failing to even love his wife as himself, and certainly not with Christ's self-sacrificing love.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    Your interpretation is certainly kind and would probably lead to a great way of life - my issue is still this text can easily be interpreted to be far less charitable and imply that the power of household decisionmaking lies with the husband, so long as he respects and loves his wife. Respecting and loving your wife is really, really up to interpretation. There are plenty of people now and throughout history who would not interpret this text the same way you have. The text unequivocally gives different instructions for men and women, and the instructions given to men imply having the power in a relationship. Your interpretation doesn't sway my reading of the text as it is.
coliveira 6y ago
The verses you mention don't negate the previous ones. Yes, they said the husbands should love their wives, as long as the wives are subservient to their husbands, i.e., both things are considered necessary.

by cat199 6y ago

kaesar14 6y ago

How does saying a husband should respect and love his wife mean that wives having to submit to their husbands isn't misogynistic? Yes, treat them well, but women must bow to their husbands in all decisions. It's a clear reinforcement of a power dynamic that ultimately means men control all the power in society.

codycraven 6y ago
I'm one of the fundamentalists everyone here seems to hate. My wife is a very strong willed person and she does submit to my decisions (never because I ask or demand it) but because we see Christ submit to the will of the father. Just as I submit to Christ. For clarity, I in no way rule over my wife, and am in no way of more value than her. The Bible makes it clear that all people are of the utmost value because they are made in the image of God. For additional context, yes my wife submits to me, but I make no decisions without her consent. I don't even buy a $5 item off Amazon without talking to her. My Biblical role is to serve my wife and family which I'm thrilled to do each day, just as we see Jesus serve his disciples when he washes their feet. What I'm trying to get to is that please do not mistake a fundamental view of the Bible as misogyny. Any teaching or text can be cherry picked without context to make any view look evil and cruel.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  I'm confused. You say your wife submits to you, then you provide examples of how that is not the dynamic in your home.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  So your wife submits to you, but she also independently makes decisions which you come to an agreement on? That's great for your family, does that mean a family where the wife makes all the decisions and controls the power is immoral?
- tpush 6y ago
  Your description of the dynamic between you and your wife is incoherent. You assert that she submits to you, but then you say that you make no decisions without her consent. So when she does not give her consent, she doesn't submit to you? Or does she simply always gives her consent, because the submission to you is a predicate. But then asking for her consent is a complete sham, a pretense to give her some agency in your mind. Irrespective of those contradictions however, a social dynamic in which the woman must axiomatically submit to the man is always inherently misogynistic no matter the justifications, be they religious or not.
  - codycraven 6y ago
    Sorry, rereading my post doesn't really make the dynamic clear and I'm not sure I could do it justice without having a dialog, but I'll attempt it. First, neither of us make purchasing nor time commitment decisions without checking with each other, my last comment made it appear there's a large imbalance in the relationship with her making all decisions. Our natural dynamics are that I operate on a system of respect, and she operates on a system of love. Yet the Bible calls us to do the opposite, I am to act in love, and she in respect (basically showing each other care in the way we best receive it). Earlier in our marriage, I was really bad at showing her love as she received it (acts of service and giving her verbal feedback to her opinions and thoughts --- sometimes I still fail, but I get better as we grow). She was bad at showing respect (when she didn't feel loved/heard she would yell). Regarding her choosing to submit, it's a motivation/outlook more than anything. When we are discussing a decision, she most always asks what I think we should do first. She will then give her thoughts on the topic and then leaves the decision up to me. There have of course been times where I end up making decisions that don't end up being the best in hindsight, but she never comes back and throws it in my face, because she chose to submit to my decision. Since it's easy to say something that is misconstrued in text, I do want to be clear I never lord over my wife. I never demand that she submit to me, she chooses to do that on her own. Hopefully that helps a little, I'm sure it's still probably unclear, my mom (who is quite left leaning and a feminist) doesn't grasp the Biblical concept of submission (thinking it means being weak and timid) and doesn't feel women should submit. Although she admires my wife's and my relationship, even though it differs from her views and has zero concern that both my daughters are raised in a household where the wife submits because the leadership is carried out with love and patience.
f154hfds 6y ago
It's hard for me to see how you're reading Ephesians 5 in good faith. Wives submit to your husbands, husbands sacrifice your lives for your wives (like how Jesus ya know, was crucified for his Church). And you read this as misogynistic? This is not by far the most problematic Pauline passage in terms of male/female roles. Taken at face value this is some pretty deep advice for how to have a functioning marriage where two people need to make decisions for their family and don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on everything.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  Yes, the husband in a family making all the decisions as long as they respect their wife is for sure misogynistic. Your interpretation of this being advice for a family to function even when they don't see eye to eye everything makes no sense to me. So if a man and woman in a marriage don't see eye to eye on an issue, the man makes the decision as long as he's kind to his wife? A wife may have her opinion, but really she has to submit in all things to their husband? I'm all for husbands loving their wives, but maybe text that clearly says that men have the power of decision making in a household could be interpreted as meaning...men have the power in a relationship.
  - f154hfds 6y ago
    Perhaps we're working with two different definitions of misogyny? "hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny Where does power come into it exactly?
    - kaesar14 6y ago
      Power has everything to do with prejudice. Divinely ordaining men with the power of the household is prejudice against women.
      - f154hfds 6y ago
        'Power' in the Christian context is quite a lot different from your impression I think: > And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45 To read Ephesians 5 without this in the background is totally misconstruing the text.
prewett 6y ago
The husband is to love his wife as he would himself; moreso, actually, he is to love his wife in the way Christ loved the church--who sacrificed his life for the well-being of the church (namely so that we could have an intimate relationship with God). It is with this understand of what a husband is that the wife submits to the husband. Submission is not unquestioning obedience, unless you insist on taking the most fundamentalist interpretation. And a husband that insists on unquestioning obedience is failing to even love his wife as himself, and certainly not with Christ's self-sacrificing love.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  Your interpretation is certainly kind and would probably lead to a great way of life - my issue is still this text can easily be interpreted to be far less charitable and imply that the power of household decisionmaking lies with the husband, so long as he respects and loves his wife. Respecting and loving your wife is really, really up to interpretation. There are plenty of people now and throughout history who would not interpret this text the same way you have. The text unequivocally gives different instructions for men and women, and the instructions given to men imply having the power in a relationship. Your interpretation doesn't sway my reading of the text as it is.

coliveira 6y ago

The verses you mention don't negate the previous ones. Yes, they said the husbands should love their wives, as long as the wives are subservient to their husbands, i.e., both things are considered necessary.