4 ms·

Nobody has any right to tell me what kind of math I can on processors I own powered by electricity that I bought.

by quotemstr 6y ago

brunoTbear 6y ago
This is tempting to think, but we already ban the math that provides, say, serving of child exploitation content.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mr_woozy 6y ago
  and it's not working https://www.bbc.com/news/education-53417284 https://www.bbc.com/news/education-53417284
jariel 6y ago
Yes, we do. We regulate all sorts of things, and this would be a smart thing to regulate. Electricity distribution and often production is partly to fully socialized almost everywhere, meaning 'it affects us all'. If you live on an island, disconnected from everyone else, then you can do whatever you want.
- mr_woozy 6y ago
  >If you live on an island, disconnected from everyone else, then you can do whatever you want. I think you're unaware how isolated and segmented some of the global electrical grids are (even in well populated areas) that create the very off-peak idle production that allows mining to exist. This is certainly the case in parts of China (rainy season hydro) and the US that must maintain capacity for instant peak usage but otherwise goes to waste.
  - jariel 6y ago
    My statement has nothing to do with electricity isolation. It has to do with the fact that systems within a nation are integrated at an economic level, especially those that are socialized. You can dig holes and fill them in your back yard to your heart's content, but you can't do something that impacts watersheds. You can use electricity, but for certain uses it might be regulated, because in many instances the electricity production and distribution is socialized. We invest billion in electricity generation to support industry and infrastructure, not to support wasteful speculation. If someone wants to put up solar panels, or generate their electricity independently with no externalizations i.e. no pollution then go ahead. But otherwise, it's a giant waste. People are literally paying slightly higher electricity bills to support speculation, not good.
semitones 6y ago
Would you make the same argument for driving a gasoline-guzzling truck? People have the right to tell you whatever you want, but you also have the right not to listen. In this case, I don't think the onus is on you, the individual consumer, to turn down their mining operation. It's problematic when something so wasteful is done on such a massive scale, as is the case with large corporate/state mining operations that are behind significant emissions..
- quotemstr 6y ago
  Yes, I would. If there's some negative externality caused by activity X, put a price on that externality and let the market decide whether X is still worth it. Top-down bans and mandates and price controls and all sorts of other clumsy interventions in society destroy value and cause endless misery to humanity. What works is letting people decide on their own how to live their lives. https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153 https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/d...
  - aetherane 6y ago
    How does this work then? If you raise electricity prices people who need it for everyday living won't be able to afford it
CyberRabbi 6y ago
Technically they do but I agree that these calls for banning Bitcoin because it consumes energy are anti-freedom when considering that its consumption of energy is a drop in the bucket in grand scheme of things.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mnd999 6y ago
  It's not a drop in the bucket. If bitcoin were a country it would be in the top 30 energy users worldwide. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56012952 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56012952
  - CyberRabbi 6y ago
    It is a drop in the bucket. As expected the distribution of energy usage among distinct countries follows a power law distribution. Of the percentage of the highest consumer (China), it’s less than 1%. Comparing the usage to China makes sense because each country’s consumption of energy for the purposes of mining Bitcoin also follows a similar power law distribution. We find that the vast majority of Bitcoin mining happens in China. These types of arguments are based on bad reasoning and misuse of statistics. If you compare the usage of any small industry in the largest consumer country, it will likely dwarf the total energy usage of many smaller countries. I see similar tendencies in activist pieces that make population policy arguments without using per-capita analysis.
    - mr_woozy 6y ago
      Well said. I may refer back to your excellent point when this argument comes up again......and again.........and again.
dghlsakjg 6y ago
Where I am, and in many places in the US and Canada (not sure about the rest of the world), part of the agreement for residential electricity hookup (and the rates that you get billed at) is that you won't be using the power for commercial use. You might have already waived your "right" to do whatever you want with the electricity you buy.

Nobody has any right to tell me what kind of math I can on processors I own powered by electricity that I bought.

brunoTbear 6y ago

This is tempting to think, but we already ban the math that provides, say, serving of child exploitation content.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mr_woozy 6y ago
and it's not working https://www.bbc.com/news/education-53417284 https://www.bbc.com/news/education-53417284

jariel 6y ago

Yes, we do. We regulate all sorts of things, and this would be a smart thing to regulate. Electricity distribution and often production is partly to fully socialized almost everywhere, meaning 'it affects us all'. If you live on an island, disconnected from everyone else, then you can do whatever you want.

mr_woozy 6y ago
>If you live on an island, disconnected from everyone else, then you can do whatever you want. I think you're unaware how isolated and segmented some of the global electrical grids are (even in well populated areas) that create the very off-peak idle production that allows mining to exist. This is certainly the case in parts of China (rainy season hydro) and the US that must maintain capacity for instant peak usage but otherwise goes to waste.
- jariel 6y ago
  My statement has nothing to do with electricity isolation. It has to do with the fact that systems within a nation are integrated at an economic level, especially those that are socialized. You can dig holes and fill them in your back yard to your heart's content, but you can't do something that impacts watersheds. You can use electricity, but for certain uses it might be regulated, because in many instances the electricity production and distribution is socialized. We invest billion in electricity generation to support industry and infrastructure, not to support wasteful speculation. If someone wants to put up solar panels, or generate their electricity independently with no externalizations i.e. no pollution then go ahead. But otherwise, it's a giant waste. People are literally paying slightly higher electricity bills to support speculation, not good.

semitones 6y ago

Would you make the same argument for driving a gasoline-guzzling truck? People have the right to tell you whatever you want, but you also have the right not to listen. In this case, I don't think the onus is on you, the individual consumer, to turn down their mining operation. It's problematic when something so wasteful is done on such a massive scale, as is the case with large corporate/state mining operations that are behind significant emissions..

quotemstr 6y ago
Yes, I would. If there's some negative externality caused by activity X, put a price on that externality and let the market decide whether X is still worth it. Top-down bans and mandates and price controls and all sorts of other clumsy interventions in society destroy value and cause endless misery to humanity. What works is letting people decide on their own how to live their lives. https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153 https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/d...
- aetherane 6y ago
  How does this work then? If you raise electricity prices people who need it for everyday living won't be able to afford it

CyberRabbi 6y ago

Technically they do but I agree that these calls for banning Bitcoin because it consumes energy are anti-freedom when considering that its consumption of energy is a drop in the bucket in grand scheme of things.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mnd999 6y ago
It's not a drop in the bucket. If bitcoin were a country it would be in the top 30 energy users worldwide. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56012952 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56012952
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  It is a drop in the bucket. As expected the distribution of energy usage among distinct countries follows a power law distribution. Of the percentage of the highest consumer (China), it’s less than 1%. Comparing the usage to China makes sense because each country’s consumption of energy for the purposes of mining Bitcoin also follows a similar power law distribution. We find that the vast majority of Bitcoin mining happens in China. These types of arguments are based on bad reasoning and misuse of statistics. If you compare the usage of any small industry in the largest consumer country, it will likely dwarf the total energy usage of many smaller countries. I see similar tendencies in activist pieces that make population policy arguments without using per-capita analysis.
  - mr_woozy 6y ago
    Well said. I may refer back to your excellent point when this argument comes up again......and again.........and again.

dghlsakjg 6y ago

Where I am, and in many places in the US and Canada (not sure about the rest of the world), part of the agreement for residential electricity hookup (and the rates that you get billed at) is that you won't be using the power for commercial use. You might have already waived your "right" to do whatever you want with the electricity you buy.