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Eph 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his

Eph 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Cor 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. 34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. Tim 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet. I think those constitute clear sexism and/or misogyny?

dawg- 6y ago
There are many different ways to read the bible. Mainly, the bible is not a literal instructional manual unless you are a fundamentalist. And fundamentalists suck. For others, it's a written record of humanity's relationship with God. It's also a collection of writings from a number of different authors and genres - it has history, poetry, letters, and so on. The old testament was written by people thousands of years ago who had an imperfect understanding of God, nature, humans, society, etc. In large part, the story of Jesus demonstrates how we should reject those archaic rules of our ancestors and act according to very simple principles; nonviolence, love for God, and love for all humans.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  I have no real bone to pick with Christianity. The asking comment was for examples of sexism and misogyny in the Bible which I provided.
cat199 6y ago
Ah yes, the old 'ephesians is mysogyny' out-of-context quote, which always manages to completely omit the lines which follow: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.1 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 o“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. won't get into the others, i'm quite sure there are cohesive rebukes / contextualization elsewhere
- kaesar14 6y ago
  How does saying a husband should respect and love his wife mean that wives having to submit to their husbands isn't misogynistic? Yes, treat them well, but women must bow to their husbands in all decisions. It's a clear reinforcement of a power dynamic that ultimately means men control all the power in society.
  - codycraven 6y ago
    I'm one of the fundamentalists everyone here seems to hate. My wife is a very strong willed person and she does submit to my decisions (never because I ask or demand it) but because we see Christ submit to the will of the father. Just as I submit to Christ. For clarity, I in no way rule over my wife, and am in no way of more value than her. The Bible makes it clear that all people are of the utmost value because they are made in the image of God. For additional context, yes my wife submits to me, but I make no decisions without her consent. I don't even buy a $5 item off Amazon without talking to her. My Biblical role is to serve my wife and family which I'm thrilled to do each day, just as we see Jesus serve his disciples when he washes their feet. What I'm trying to get to is that please do not mistake a fundamental view of the Bible as misogyny. Any teaching or text can be cherry picked without context to make any view look evil and cruel.
    - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
      I'm confused. You say your wife submits to you, then you provide examples of how that is not the dynamic in your home.
    - kaesar14 6y ago
      So your wife submits to you, but she also independently makes decisions which you come to an agreement on? That's great for your family, does that mean a family where the wife makes all the decisions and controls the power is immoral?
    - tpush 6y ago
      Your description of the dynamic between you and your wife is incoherent. You assert that she submits to you, but then you say that you make no decisions without her consent. So when she does not give her consent, she doesn't submit to you? Or does she simply always gives her consent, because the submission to you is a predicate. But then asking for her consent is a complete sham, a pretense to give her some agency in your mind. Irrespective of those contradictions however, a social dynamic in which the woman must axiomatically submit to the man is always inherently misogynistic no matter the justifications, be they religious or not.
onwchristian 6y ago
Note: this is a bit cherry-picking out of context, which I'll admit sometimes happens in Christian circles as well. But I think understanding the context and culture of the time can make things a bit more clear. Yes, the culture of the time had a different handling of gender roles, and some of that persists in other cultures around the world to this day. These were letters written to the Christians in the churches of the day. Likely the content would be written slightly differently if it were written to a church in the modern day USA. For example: Ephesians 6 goes on from what you clipped: 25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. 27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body. This seems to me to indicate that husbands should be self-sacrificing and putting their wives' needs above their own. All the submission indicated here is similar to the way that Christ (the Son) submits to God the Father. These would have been very strong and shocking words in that culture, that normally would have allowed for husbands to have complete "rule" over their wives, and instead is urging husbands to self-sacrifice for their wives. So if anything, it would have been improving the standing of women rather than "keeping them down." If you're married, have you ever willingly given up on your own desires, instead following your spouse's needs/wants? Have they ever done the same for you? This seems to be what this passage is encouraging.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  I'm not cherry picking out of context. The following lines don't make it any better to me. The text is ultimately still saying women should bow and submit to their husbands decisions in all things, as long as their husbands treat them well. Yeah, I get that this was 'progressive' for its time. I still find it absurd people follow text like this as holy. Your interpretation is well and dandy but perhaps as a society we need to stop holding text that's so dated in such high regard, where many peoples interpretation is far less optimistic and charitable than yours.
TheCoelacanth 6y ago
Take out the writings of Paul (who never actually met Christ) and the whole thing becomes so much less problematic.
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  Have Christians all agreed to take out the gospel according to Paul?
  - josefx 6y ago
    I can't remember ever being in a church where women were required to stay silent. So not quite dropped but at least not enforced by most. Ask me again once everyone dropped miles for metric.
    - kaesar14 6y ago
      There are plenty of modern Christian sects where I'm certain men do get more of a voice than women.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  It's all in the Bible.
- coliveira 6y ago
  The day Christians remove Paul's letters from the Bible, then your argument will make sense.
- prewett 6y ago
  Paul claims to have met Christ on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-6) [1] and claims apostolic authority because of it (Acts 15:3-8) [2]. Furthermore, other apostles agreed that he had, or at least that he had the correct message (Gal 2:6-10) [3] and that his writings had the force of scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16) [4]. It is a letter from Peter, the head of the church in Jerusalem, claiming equating Paul's writing with "the other Scriptures", so you can't take out Paul's writing by claiming that that the original apostles did not believe what Paul wrote. [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=... [2] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+15&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians... [3] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&v... [4] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+3&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+3&ver...
tdozi 6y ago
I’ll add this as a great overview and resource for the context around that letter(and all the others): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y71r-T98E2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y71r-T98E2Q

dawg- 6y ago

There are many different ways to read the bible. Mainly, the bible is not a literal instructional manual unless you are a fundamentalist. And fundamentalists suck. For others, it's a written record of humanity's relationship with God. It's also a collection of writings from a number of different authors and genres - it has history, poetry, letters, and so on. The old testament was written by people thousands of years ago who had an imperfect understanding of God, nature, humans, society, etc. In large part, the story of Jesus demonstrates how we should reject those archaic rules of our ancestors and act according to very simple principles; nonviolence, love for God, and love for all humans.

kaesar14 6y ago
I have no real bone to pick with Christianity. The asking comment was for examples of sexism and misogyny in the Bible which I provided.

cat199 6y ago

Ah yes, the old 'ephesians is mysogyny' out-of-context quote, which always manages to completely omit the lines which follow: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.1 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 o“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. won't get into the others, i'm quite sure there are cohesive rebukes / contextualization elsewhere

kaesar14 6y ago
How does saying a husband should respect and love his wife mean that wives having to submit to their husbands isn't misogynistic? Yes, treat them well, but women must bow to their husbands in all decisions. It's a clear reinforcement of a power dynamic that ultimately means men control all the power in society.
- codycraven 6y ago
  I'm one of the fundamentalists everyone here seems to hate. My wife is a very strong willed person and she does submit to my decisions (never because I ask or demand it) but because we see Christ submit to the will of the father. Just as I submit to Christ. For clarity, I in no way rule over my wife, and am in no way of more value than her. The Bible makes it clear that all people are of the utmost value because they are made in the image of God. For additional context, yes my wife submits to me, but I make no decisions without her consent. I don't even buy a $5 item off Amazon without talking to her. My Biblical role is to serve my wife and family which I'm thrilled to do each day, just as we see Jesus serve his disciples when he washes their feet. What I'm trying to get to is that please do not mistake a fundamental view of the Bible as misogyny. Any teaching or text can be cherry picked without context to make any view look evil and cruel.
  - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
    I'm confused. You say your wife submits to you, then you provide examples of how that is not the dynamic in your home.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    So your wife submits to you, but she also independently makes decisions which you come to an agreement on? That's great for your family, does that mean a family where the wife makes all the decisions and controls the power is immoral?
  - tpush 6y ago
    Your description of the dynamic between you and your wife is incoherent. You assert that she submits to you, but then you say that you make no decisions without her consent. So when she does not give her consent, she doesn't submit to you? Or does she simply always gives her consent, because the submission to you is a predicate. But then asking for her consent is a complete sham, a pretense to give her some agency in your mind. Irrespective of those contradictions however, a social dynamic in which the woman must axiomatically submit to the man is always inherently misogynistic no matter the justifications, be they religious or not.

onwchristian 6y ago

Note: this is a bit cherry-picking out of context, which I'll admit sometimes happens in Christian circles as well. But I think understanding the context and culture of the time can make things a bit more clear. Yes, the culture of the time had a different handling of gender roles, and some of that persists in other cultures around the world to this day. These were letters written to the Christians in the churches of the day. Likely the content would be written slightly differently if it were written to a church in the modern day USA. For example: Ephesians 6 goes on from what you clipped: 25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. 27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body. This seems to me to indicate that husbands should be self-sacrificing and putting their wives' needs above their own. All the submission indicated here is similar to the way that Christ (the Son) submits to God the Father. These would have been very strong and shocking words in that culture, that normally would have allowed for husbands to have complete "rule" over their wives, and instead is urging husbands to self-sacrifice for their wives. So if anything, it would have been improving the standing of women rather than "keeping them down." If you're married, have you ever willingly given up on your own desires, instead following your spouse's needs/wants? Have they ever done the same for you? This seems to be what this passage is encouraging.

kaesar14 6y ago
I'm not cherry picking out of context. The following lines don't make it any better to me. The text is ultimately still saying women should bow and submit to their husbands decisions in all things, as long as their husbands treat them well. Yeah, I get that this was 'progressive' for its time. I still find it absurd people follow text like this as holy. Your interpretation is well and dandy but perhaps as a society we need to stop holding text that's so dated in such high regard, where many peoples interpretation is far less optimistic and charitable than yours.

TheCoelacanth 6y ago

Take out the writings of Paul (who never actually met Christ) and the whole thing becomes so much less problematic.

colinmhayes 6y ago
Have Christians all agreed to take out the gospel according to Paul?
- josefx 6y ago
  I can't remember ever being in a church where women were required to stay silent. So not quite dropped but at least not enforced by most. Ask me again once everyone dropped miles for metric.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    There are plenty of modern Christian sects where I'm certain men do get more of a voice than women.
kaesar14 6y ago
It's all in the Bible.
coliveira 6y ago
The day Christians remove Paul's letters from the Bible, then your argument will make sense.
prewett 6y ago
Paul claims to have met Christ on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3-6) [1] and claims apostolic authority because of it (Acts 15:3-8) [2]. Furthermore, other apostles agreed that he had, or at least that he had the correct message (Gal 2:6-10) [3] and that his writings had the force of scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16) [4]. It is a letter from Peter, the head of the church in Jerusalem, claiming equating Paul's writing with "the other Scriptures", so you can't take out Paul's writing by claiming that that the original apostles did not believe what Paul wrote. [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=... [2] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+15&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians... [3] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&v... [4] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+3&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+3&ver...

tdozi 6y ago

I’ll add this as a great overview and resource for the context around that letter(and all the others): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y71r-T98E2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y71r-T98E2Q