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Are there clear examples of that in the Bible (New Testament) or is it just how people interpret it? Edit. I’m not challenging or arguing any point. I was genu

Are there clear examples of that in the Bible (New Testament) or is it just how people interpret it? Edit. I’m not challenging or arguing any point. I was genuinely curious.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jazzyb 6y ago
Women shouldn't speak in church: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm Homosexuality is unnatural: https://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/1-27.html https://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/1-27.html
- m0llusk 6y ago
  There are real issues there, but the homosexuality quote is one of the "big eight" anti gay quotes that come up often and turn out to be misunderstood or translation errors that don't hold up to serious scrutiny. Homosexuality as we know it today was not well known or named at the time that text was written, just to start. Searching for the "big eight" helps both with that specifically and the general business of understanding how ancient stories get misunderstood by our modern news clip processing habits.
kaesar14 6y ago
Eph 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Cor 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. 34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. Tim 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet. I think those constitute clear sexism and/or misogyny?
- dawg- 6y ago
  There are many different ways to read the bible. Mainly, the bible is not a literal instructional manual unless you are a fundamentalist. And fundamentalists suck. For others, it's a written record of humanity's relationship with God. It's also a collection of writings from a number of different authors and genres - it has history, poetry, letters, and so on. The old testament was written by people thousands of years ago who had an imperfect understanding of God, nature, humans, society, etc. In large part, the story of Jesus demonstrates how we should reject those archaic rules of our ancestors and act according to very simple principles; nonviolence, love for God, and love for all humans.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    I have no real bone to pick with Christianity. The asking comment was for examples of sexism and misogyny in the Bible which I provided.
- cat199 6y ago
  Ah yes, the old 'ephesians is mysogyny' out-of-context quote, which always manages to completely omit the lines which follow: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.1 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 o“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. won't get into the others, i'm quite sure there are cohesive rebukes / contextualization elsewhere
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    How does saying a husband should respect and love his wife mean that wives having to submit to their husbands isn't misogynistic? Yes, treat them well, but women must bow to their husbands in all decisions. It's a clear reinforcement of a power dynamic that ultimately means men control all the power in society.
yonaguska 6y ago
The New Testament is often mistakenly touted as a "reformation" from the Old Testament, and cherry-picked apart into a more progressive form of Christianity, but, it's not all that different from the Old Testament in actuality. New Testament also defines dress codes for women and re-affirms a patriarchal family heirarchy.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  > it's not all that different from the Old Testament in actuality Um, have you actually read them? They are miles apart. Can you find me the reams of legal codes or origin stories in the New Testament, for example?
  - sudosteph 6y ago
    Agree completely. While both texts do largely focus on people of Jewish origins, there is not a lot of actual overlap on content. Some of the NT books are seen as prophetical, so that lines up to some degree - but even those read very different. It's not just content that differs either - the literary style of the NT also deviates greatly, since it borrows much more from hellenized culture than the OT. Especially the synoptic gospels. For example, John, was composed using a layered "onion" type narrative structure which was popular in other greek texts. They're even so different, that one form of heresy that was more common back in the day (Gnosticism), would sometimes claim that the OT deity was a false-god (the demiurge), because how else do you explain such a personality change?
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Taking the scriptures literally and limiting yourself only to direct recommendations from New Testament (i.e. no backlinking to Old Testament), at the very least, treatment of women in New Testament is pretty old-school patriarchal[0]. It's interesting to observe the ways various Christian groups try to navigate their way around gender roles in their communities. You have a full spectrum here. From some fundamentalist US churches that will take everything super-literally, through groups like Jehovah's Witnesses[1] who sort-of take this literally, but make reasonable exceptions[2], through Catholics in Western countries, where most believers probably haven't even heard or thought about these passages, and any semblance of adhering to them is likely seen as more traditional than religious - all the way to lenient Christian groups that allow women priests. In my experience, all Christianity is like this. Every group in every location[3] has their own specific understanding of which words are to be taken literally, which ones figuratively (and to what degree), and which ones to be completely ignored. -- [0] - E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12, https://www.openbible.info/topics/head_coverings https://www.openbible.info/topics/head_coverings and related references - literally, women should not teach, not usurp authority of a man, should wear head covering when performing the subset of religious functions they're allowed to, etc. [1] - If I seem to focus on JWs too much in this thread, that's because I spent 20 years being one. [2] - E.g. over at Jehovah's Witnesses, there's a lot that would technically qualify as "praying or prophesising" where women are't required to cover their heads, and men are not required to uncover theirs. Also definition of "cover" is "with a hat or similar", probably not what the authors had in mind. [3] - As I understand it, Catholics in the West and in Africa are essentially two different religions. The former, having lived with it for centuries, ignore or pay lip service to all the rules that the latter obey to the letter.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  > treatment of women in New Testament is pretty old-school patriarchal It reflects the mores of the times, which were different than ours. People 2000 years from now will certainly look at us and be aghast at some of our norms. My denomination has had woman pastors since the mid 1800s.
sudosteph 6y ago
There are, but it's worth noting that they are all quotes from Paul, not Jesus.
- coliveira 6y ago
  You mean, the same Jesus who appointed only men to be his disciples, while the women in his entourage were servants? It seems that Paul was just putting into words his practice.
  - sudosteph 6y ago
    Funny you mention that! Yes, the four gospels that were canonized by a patriarchal church organization do seem to paint a picture like that. But the Gospel of Thomas, and other ancient "heretical" texts tell a different story, where Jesus explicitly acknowledgd women as equals and Mary as the favorite disciple. So even some very early Christians would disagree with Paul here.

Are there clear examples of that in the Bible (New Testament) or is it just how people interpret it? Edit. I’m not challenging or arguing any point. I was genuinely curious.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jazzyb 6y ago

Women shouldn't speak in church: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm Homosexuality is unnatural: https://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/1-27.html https://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/1-27.html

m0llusk 6y ago
There are real issues there, but the homosexuality quote is one of the "big eight" anti gay quotes that come up often and turn out to be misunderstood or translation errors that don't hold up to serious scrutiny. Homosexuality as we know it today was not well known or named at the time that text was written, just to start. Searching for the "big eight" helps both with that specifically and the general business of understanding how ancient stories get misunderstood by our modern news clip processing habits.

kaesar14 6y ago

Eph 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Cor 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. 34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. Tim 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet. I think those constitute clear sexism and/or misogyny?

dawg- 6y ago
There are many different ways to read the bible. Mainly, the bible is not a literal instructional manual unless you are a fundamentalist. And fundamentalists suck. For others, it's a written record of humanity's relationship with God. It's also a collection of writings from a number of different authors and genres - it has history, poetry, letters, and so on. The old testament was written by people thousands of years ago who had an imperfect understanding of God, nature, humans, society, etc. In large part, the story of Jesus demonstrates how we should reject those archaic rules of our ancestors and act according to very simple principles; nonviolence, love for God, and love for all humans.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  I have no real bone to pick with Christianity. The asking comment was for examples of sexism and misogyny in the Bible which I provided.
cat199 6y ago
Ah yes, the old 'ephesians is mysogyny' out-of-context quote, which always manages to completely omit the lines which follow: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.1 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 o“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. won't get into the others, i'm quite sure there are cohesive rebukes / contextualization elsewhere
- kaesar14 6y ago
  How does saying a husband should respect and love his wife mean that wives having to submit to their husbands isn't misogynistic? Yes, treat them well, but women must bow to their husbands in all decisions. It's a clear reinforcement of a power dynamic that ultimately means men control all the power in society.

yonaguska 6y ago

The New Testament is often mistakenly touted as a "reformation" from the Old Testament, and cherry-picked apart into a more progressive form of Christianity, but, it's not all that different from the Old Testament in actuality. New Testament also defines dress codes for women and re-affirms a patriarchal family heirarchy.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago
> it's not all that different from the Old Testament in actuality Um, have you actually read them? They are miles apart. Can you find me the reams of legal codes or origin stories in the New Testament, for example?
- sudosteph 6y ago
  Agree completely. While both texts do largely focus on people of Jewish origins, there is not a lot of actual overlap on content. Some of the NT books are seen as prophetical, so that lines up to some degree - but even those read very different. It's not just content that differs either - the literary style of the NT also deviates greatly, since it borrows much more from hellenized culture than the OT. Especially the synoptic gospels. For example, John, was composed using a layered "onion" type narrative structure which was popular in other greek texts. They're even so different, that one form of heresy that was more common back in the day (Gnosticism), would sometimes claim that the OT deity was a false-god (the demiurge), because how else do you explain such a personality change?

TeMPOraL 6y ago

Taking the scriptures literally and limiting yourself only to direct recommendations from New Testament (i.e. no backlinking to Old Testament), at the very least, treatment of women in New Testament is pretty old-school patriarchal[0]. It's interesting to observe the ways various Christian groups try to navigate their way around gender roles in their communities. You have a full spectrum here. From some fundamentalist US churches that will take everything super-literally, through groups like Jehovah's Witnesses[1] who sort-of take this literally, but make reasonable exceptions[2], through Catholics in Western countries, where most believers probably haven't even heard or thought about these passages, and any semblance of adhering to them is likely seen as more traditional than religious - all the way to lenient Christian groups that allow women priests. In my experience, all Christianity is like this. Every group in every location[3] has their own specific understanding of which words are to be taken literally, which ones figuratively (and to what degree), and which ones to be completely ignored. -- [0] - E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12, https://www.openbible.info/topics/head_coverings https://www.openbible.info/topics/head_coverings and related references - literally, women should not teach, not usurp authority of a man, should wear head covering when performing the subset of religious functions they're allowed to, etc. [1] - If I seem to focus on JWs too much in this thread, that's because I spent 20 years being one. [2] - E.g. over at Jehovah's Witnesses, there's a lot that would technically qualify as "praying or prophesising" where women are't required to cover their heads, and men are not required to uncover theirs. Also definition of "cover" is "with a hat or similar", probably not what the authors had in mind. [3] - As I understand it, Catholics in the West and in Africa are essentially two different religions. The former, having lived with it for centuries, ignore or pay lip service to all the rules that the latter obey to the letter.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago
> treatment of women in New Testament is pretty old-school patriarchal It reflects the mores of the times, which were different than ours. People 2000 years from now will certainly look at us and be aghast at some of our norms. My denomination has had woman pastors since the mid 1800s.

sudosteph 6y ago

There are, but it's worth noting that they are all quotes from Paul, not Jesus.

coliveira 6y ago
You mean, the same Jesus who appointed only men to be his disciples, while the women in his entourage were servants? It seems that Paul was just putting into words his practice.
- sudosteph 6y ago
  Funny you mention that! Yes, the four gospels that were canonized by a patriarchal church organization do seem to paint a picture like that. But the Gospel of Thomas, and other ancient "heretical" texts tell a different story, where Jesus explicitly acknowledgd women as equals and Mary as the favorite disciple. So even some very early Christians would disagree with Paul here.