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You said you don't have a moral system without religion. That's preposterous. You also don't end up with a moral system you just invented. But how much of it

by eloff 6y ago

You said you don't have a moral system without religion. That's preposterous. You also don't end up with a moral system you just invented. But how much of it is due to religions present and past is a fair question. Religion is universal, it must clearly serve some purpose and convey some advantage to humans. I'm not arguing it has no value. It's also unclear if you could get rid of god based religions if they would not just be replaced with something else similar to a religion. Woke culture makes me wonder.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Supernatural beliefs are universal. Religion is not. Further, Christianity was the first "religion" to insist on its exclusivity. Others were either "people" religions ("Jews believe this"), animistic/traditional spiritualities, or highly polytheistic systems that willingly absorbed or included other gods / belief systems easily. Christians were the first to come along and say: you [anyone in humanity] will burn eternally if you don't practice this belief exclusively, only we are correct. And not only that, by the 3rd century they were executing each other for disagreements about very arcane subjects (consubstantiality, etc.) And then later killing non-Christians as well.
- eloff 6y ago
  > Supernatural beliefs are universal. Religion is not. Can you point me at a pre modern culture that didn't have religion? I don't know any off hand.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    It really depends on your definition of religion. We tend to superimpose Abrahamic religious models onto how we see "pagan" practices, but in reality many belief systems wouldn't fit what we call religion now. Almost all of them, including traditional Roman beliefs didn't include any notion of their own supremacy or unique truth, for example. The gods were not "perfect" beings or all-knowing they were just ... more powerful people. What you _believed_ was less important than what you practiced (sacrifice, etc.) Christianity was the first to make _belief_ primary. And this goes back to what I was saying at the start of this thread: the church community is nice. But it is tied to an insistence in belief. Like, you have to have these ideas in your head. That's actually kind of f*cked up if you think about it, and kind of an aberration in the context of spiritual practices in all of human history. Most of the time it was: put this idol in your house or give a sacrifice for a good harvest and we're good. Nobody cared if you believed it or not. It's a series of practices to hopefully alter the world. And some good stories to go with it. The Romans were incredulous at the early Christians not because of what they believed ("sure, Christ, why not...") but because they refused to follow along in community practices (no sacrifices to the emperor or city gods) and insisted that _only_ their beliefs were correct.
    - eloff 6y ago
      > It really depends on your definition of religion. From Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith I think that applies universally or very nearly so to human societies - which is amazing because very little is so universally human. > many belief systems wouldn't fit what we call religion now I see that as just a blind spot caused by our Judaeo-Christian heritage, not a fundamental issue. You've got some interesting points though about how Christianity differs from pagan religions (actually I think it applies to Judaism and Islam as well.)

by eloff 6y ago

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

Supernatural beliefs are universal. Religion is not. Further, Christianity was the first "religion" to insist on its exclusivity. Others were either "people" religions ("Jews believe this"), animistic/traditional spiritualities, or highly polytheistic systems that willingly absorbed or included other gods / belief systems easily. Christians were the first to come along and say: you [anyone in humanity] will burn eternally if you don't practice this belief exclusively, only we are correct. And not only that, by the 3rd century they were executing each other for disagreements about very arcane subjects (consubstantiality, etc.) And then later killing non-Christians as well.

eloff 6y ago
> Supernatural beliefs are universal. Religion is not. Can you point me at a pre modern culture that didn't have religion? I don't know any off hand.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  It really depends on your definition of religion. We tend to superimpose Abrahamic religious models onto how we see "pagan" practices, but in reality many belief systems wouldn't fit what we call religion now. Almost all of them, including traditional Roman beliefs didn't include any notion of their own supremacy or unique truth, for example. The gods were not "perfect" beings or all-knowing they were just ... more powerful people. What you _believed_ was less important than what you practiced (sacrifice, etc.) Christianity was the first to make _belief_ primary. And this goes back to what I was saying at the start of this thread: the church community is nice. But it is tied to an insistence in belief. Like, you have to have these ideas in your head. That's actually kind of f*cked up if you think about it, and kind of an aberration in the context of spiritual practices in all of human history. Most of the time it was: put this idol in your house or give a sacrifice for a good harvest and we're good. Nobody cared if you believed it or not. It's a series of practices to hopefully alter the world. And some good stories to go with it. The Romans were incredulous at the early Christians not because of what they believed ("sure, Christ, why not...") but because they refused to follow along in community practices (no sacrifices to the emperor or city gods) and insisted that _only_ their beliefs were correct.
  - eloff 6y ago
    > It really depends on your definition of religion. From Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith I think that applies universally or very nearly so to human societies - which is amazing because very little is so universally human. > many belief systems wouldn't fit what we call religion now I see that as just a blind spot caused by our Judaeo-Christian heritage, not a fundamental issue. You've got some interesting points though about how Christianity differs from pagan religions (actually I think it applies to Judaism and Islam as well.)