4 ms·

Although I believe religion is outdated and in many ways I'm happy to see it in decline in the West, I do worry about the side effects the decline of religion h

by kypro 6y ago

Although I believe religion is outdated and in many ways I'm happy to see it in decline in the West, I do worry about the side effects the decline of religion has. It seems to me that people my age today (late twenties, early thirties) are extremely self-centred and struggle to see any higher pursuit in life than self-satisfaction. This is in contrast to the few religious people I know who are far more family focused and believe in self-sacrifice in the pursuit of what they believe to be morally good - charity, children, community, etc. As a teenager who went to a catholic school I often found myself in trouble for mocking things we were taught from the bible, but as I've grown up I've come to appreciate religion and the role it has historically played in our society. For example, my sister has made a lot of bad decisions in life - drug use, having a child to get a council house, arrested for violent behaviour, etc. Something that made me reflect on my attitude towards religion was that I realised my sister would likely be in a much better place today if we lived in a more religious society. Many of the legal things she did for self-satisfaction would have been look down upon just a few decades back and if that happened she may not be the way she is today. I see this all the time as someone who grew up in a poor area of my city, the lack of religion promoting family values and self-sacrifice is clearly hurting those on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder the most. Almost everyone young female in my family is a single mother living in government housing today, many struggling with drug addiction and mental illness. This just wouldn't have been the case in past decades. If you educated and middle-class you're far more able to go a bit crazy in your twenties before you you settle down in your thirties. If you're able to responsibly navigate between self-satisfaction and self-sacrifice then religious values are less important and perhaps even seen as a burden in your life, but if you have less self-control and perhaps don't have the intellect to form your own secular spiritual meaning to life, then what else is lack but the pursuit of self-satisfaction? Sorry for the ramble. This is a topic I think about a lot because I'm so split in my thoughts towards religion today. I don't think we should go back to religion, but I suspect we might need to find a substitute for it.

ookdatnog 6y ago
> I realised my sister would likely be in a much better place today if we lived in a more religious society. I'm really not so sure about that. For instance, the top 10 states in terms of teenage pregnancy in the US is mostly dominated by religious states[0]. I'm not sure I've ever seen a stat like crime, drug use, etc, where the more religious states perform better than more secular states. Of course, other factors might influence these stats. But at the very least it seems that, even if religion isn't actively harmful, it doesn't seem to be helping all that much. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_in_the_United_States#By_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_in_the_Unite... ; the data is from 2010 though
some-guy 6y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I grew up Christian and then became a very "online atheist", but since the mid-2000s I've become more worried about the lack of what feels like a real in-person community. My wife is Reform Jewish and one thing that I have come to appreciate is what seems to me a good balance between community and a good dose of secularism--I agreed to help raise our children this way with her for this reason (without converting myself). The most dogmatic thing you could maybe argue is some kind of allegiance to Israel, but this isn't present as much in the younger / millennial Bay Area Jewish community that I've witnessed.
pnathan 6y ago
Quick note: your sister's story was also common enough in the 1880-1950 timeframe. She'd also have been considered a loose woman, immoral, etc, and come under vicious religious censure. Now, statistically, would that have improved things more generally? I don't know. But it was a thing. If we were to spin the clock back to pre-industrialization and its concomitant labor crunching, I don't know that period of history quite as well. While I think the lack of good religious thinking is causing all sorts of odd misfires across society, I'm not sure it would improve "bad choices" though. C.f. canturbury tales...
- kypro 6y ago
  Sure, it happened, but the rate of single parenthood has historically been in the single digits. Today I believe around a third of children are born into single parent families. To be fair I don’t think it’s entirely a lack of religion to blame for this trend though. I think a less religious but more culturally conservative society would also see lower levels of single parenthood. It seems likely to me to be partly the absence of religious beliefs alongside the promotion of more destructive cultural values that has done the damage. A third component is the way in which the welfare state (at least here in the UK) “rewards” people who make poor life decisions. My sister rightly understood the only way a working class girl with no qualifications is going to move out of her parents’ home is to have a kid. In the past she would have been forced to have found someone who could provide for her or she would have needed to find a way to earn a living. Now if despite she would have made all the same bad decisions anyway I suspect you’re right, past societies would have looked on her decisions much less favourably and she would likely be far worse off. But I doubt this would have happened. She was always a smart kid - far smarter than me. But when everyone around you is skipping school to smoke in the park or having kids at 15 while being given a new home by the government it’s hard to resist what seems like an obvious path. I guess what I’m saying is that I would acknowledge that it’s not entirely a lack of religion at play here, but the decline of family values that religion promoted and the lack of moral objection to certain lifestyles has given room for less preferable cultural attitudes and beliefs to arise. The fact people think I’m wrong to criticise my sister for choosing to have a child with an alcoholic she barely knew to move out of my parents home, for example. It honestly annoys me how many people say her selfish decision which her child will bare the brunt of is something that she should be proud of. I love with all my heart but it’s selfish and wrong, and she was failed by everyone who didn’t plainly tell her that.

by kypro 6y ago

ookdatnog 6y ago

> I realised my sister would likely be in a much better place today if we lived in a more religious society. I'm really not so sure about that. For instance, the top 10 states in terms of teenage pregnancy in the US is mostly dominated by religious states[0]. I'm not sure I've ever seen a stat like crime, drug use, etc, where the more religious states perform better than more secular states. Of course, other factors might influence these stats. But at the very least it seems that, even if religion isn't actively harmful, it doesn't seem to be helping all that much. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_in_the_United_States#By_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_in_the_Unite... ; the data is from 2010 though

some-guy 6y ago

I'm in a similar boat. I grew up Christian and then became a very "online atheist", but since the mid-2000s I've become more worried about the lack of what feels like a real in-person community. My wife is Reform Jewish and one thing that I have come to appreciate is what seems to me a good balance between community and a good dose of secularism--I agreed to help raise our children this way with her for this reason (without converting myself). The most dogmatic thing you could maybe argue is some kind of allegiance to Israel, but this isn't present as much in the younger / millennial Bay Area Jewish community that I've witnessed.

pnathan 6y ago

Quick note: your sister's story was also common enough in the 1880-1950 timeframe. She'd also have been considered a loose woman, immoral, etc, and come under vicious religious censure. Now, statistically, would that have improved things more generally? I don't know. But it was a thing. If we were to spin the clock back to pre-industrialization and its concomitant labor crunching, I don't know that period of history quite as well. While I think the lack of good religious thinking is causing all sorts of odd misfires across society, I'm not sure it would improve "bad choices" though. C.f. canturbury tales...

kypro 6y ago
Sure, it happened, but the rate of single parenthood has historically been in the single digits. Today I believe around a third of children are born into single parent families. To be fair I don’t think it’s entirely a lack of religion to blame for this trend though. I think a less religious but more culturally conservative society would also see lower levels of single parenthood. It seems likely to me to be partly the absence of religious beliefs alongside the promotion of more destructive cultural values that has done the damage. A third component is the way in which the welfare state (at least here in the UK) “rewards” people who make poor life decisions. My sister rightly understood the only way a working class girl with no qualifications is going to move out of her parents’ home is to have a kid. In the past she would have been forced to have found someone who could provide for her or she would have needed to find a way to earn a living. Now if despite she would have made all the same bad decisions anyway I suspect you’re right, past societies would have looked on her decisions much less favourably and she would likely be far worse off. But I doubt this would have happened. She was always a smart kid - far smarter than me. But when everyone around you is skipping school to smoke in the park or having kids at 15 while being given a new home by the government it’s hard to resist what seems like an obvious path. I guess what I’m saying is that I would acknowledge that it’s not entirely a lack of religion at play here, but the decline of family values that religion promoted and the lack of moral objection to certain lifestyles has given room for less preferable cultural attitudes and beliefs to arise. The fact people think I’m wrong to criticise my sister for choosing to have a child with an alcoholic she barely knew to move out of my parents home, for example. It honestly annoys me how many people say her selfish decision which her child will bare the brunt of is something that she should be proud of. I love with all my heart but it’s selfish and wrong, and she was failed by everyone who didn’t plainly tell her that.