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As much as I appreciate your level headed approach of the whole thing, the very basis of most religion is based on _faith_ that [insert relevant scriptures] are

As much as I appreciate your level headed approach of the whole thing, the very basis of most religion is based on _faith_ that [insert relevant scriptures] are holding some truth about the very existence and power of [insert omnipotent entity]. I'll be honest, I have a hard time putting this very fundamental point as having any basis in logic and reason. Even putting beliefs at the same level as reason is rather questionable, IMHO. Edit: I'm not here to tell you you're wrong or to question your beliefs. You're very much free to hold them. I'm just having a hard time equating religion with objectivity when they are fundamentally rooted in something subjective by nature.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago
I agree with you that it's not based on logic and reason. And I am OK with that. The mystery and subjectiveness is part of the point and part of reality that we need to grapple with.
- sidlls 6y ago
  "Mystery" and "subjectiveness" are euphemistic descriptions of mythology and fairy tales, used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today. People who go to church are implicitly supporting these things. Some of them have an excuse, in that they were simply raised that way and never had an opportunity for enlightenment. People who should know better don't have that excuse.
  - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
    > used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today People who want to war will use any reason they can. Many have used religion, unfortunately. Mao and Hitler didn't, though.
Mertax 6y ago
While I should attempt to create objective and rational explanation for everything, I think most people recognize I'd be hubristic to assume I can do this in all cases. Whether or not a belief system has to come into play is perhaps subjective. The irony is that I think most belief systems have the staying power they do because they cannot be entirely discredited through logic and reason.
grogenaut 6y ago
I went to a Catholic highschool as a non-catholic. It was taught by marianists and we had visiting jesuits often. They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. They were very harsh on everyone's beliefs and made you analyze them. It didn't work for me but I appreciated the emphasis on critical thinking. I did enjoy the classes where we just gutted and analyzed the bible like any other literary work, they were not shy about it and it was fun to watch it shock the "devout Catholic kids".
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  > They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. So the absence of evidence is evidence of the supernatural? Isn't this the god-of-the-gaps?
- folkrav 6y ago
  > They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic I'm fine with this... until they start proposing that the explanation for "you can't explain it all with logic" is "therefore there is an almighty God" rather than "therefore we don't how it works yet". At this point, my level of faith approaches zero (I sit somewhere along the lines of agnosticism or apatheism, depending on my mood) so you're losing me completely.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago

I agree with you that it's not based on logic and reason. And I am OK with that. The mystery and subjectiveness is part of the point and part of reality that we need to grapple with.

sidlls 6y ago
"Mystery" and "subjectiveness" are euphemistic descriptions of mythology and fairy tales, used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today. People who go to church are implicitly supporting these things. Some of them have an excuse, in that they were simply raised that way and never had an opportunity for enlightenment. People who should know better don't have that excuse.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  > used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today People who want to war will use any reason they can. Many have used religion, unfortunately. Mao and Hitler didn't, though.

Mertax 6y ago

While I should attempt to create objective and rational explanation for everything, I think most people recognize I'd be hubristic to assume I can do this in all cases. Whether or not a belief system has to come into play is perhaps subjective. The irony is that I think most belief systems have the staying power they do because they cannot be entirely discredited through logic and reason.

grogenaut 6y ago

I went to a Catholic highschool as a non-catholic. It was taught by marianists and we had visiting jesuits often. They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. They were very harsh on everyone's beliefs and made you analyze them. It didn't work for me but I appreciated the emphasis on critical thinking. I did enjoy the classes where we just gutted and analyzed the bible like any other literary work, they were not shy about it and it was fun to watch it shock the "devout Catholic kids".

paulryanrogers 6y ago
> They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. So the absence of evidence is evidence of the supernatural? Isn't this the god-of-the-gaps?
folkrav 6y ago
> They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic I'm fine with this... until they start proposing that the explanation for "you can't explain it all with logic" is "therefore there is an almighty God" rather than "therefore we don't how it works yet". At this point, my level of faith approaches zero (I sit somewhere along the lines of agnosticism or apatheism, depending on my mood) so you're losing me completely.