4 ms·

Kinect for Windows is, IMHO, Microsoft's only chance of really getting back in the game. It is an Apple level sea change if they can capitalize on it. I mean

Kinect for Windows is, IMHO, Microsoft's only chance of really getting back in the game. It is an Apple level sea change if they can capitalize on it. I mean lets be real here. Touch is a great way to interact with computing devices but it screws up the screen. Until someone invents a smudge proof surface that will always be the case. Beyond that usability studies show touch screens on PCs just don't work. People's shoulders start to hurt very quickly. Kinect solves that. It's touch without touching. It can be done without having to reach over the keyboard. It IS the future if Microsoft can capitalize on it.

spot 15y ago
i don't think it solves the "starts to hurt" problem. it's not the touch that causes that, it's holding your arm up.
- TomOfTTB 15y ago
  Right but if you don't have to reach you don't have to use your shoulder to hold up your arm. Just your elbow to move your hand up above the keyboard so the Kinect Sensor can see it.
  - leon_ 15y ago
    So what's the reason for a kinect sensor then? I'd rather hit a key on my keyboard (which gives me instant physical feedback) than hovering my hand in the air and trying to grab a file or something.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  It depends on how much you use it for. For typing, it's not so good. As a browser back button, it's comparable to mouse gestures in effort.
napierzaza 15y ago
I think that moving a finger to do an action is going to trump needing to move your whole arm or do jumping jacks for the same action. Especially since it would be fairly embarrassing for probably a whole generation of people before it became common place. But it might justify some of the more active users getting offices. What you're suggesting I imagine is points at an item but doesn't touch it. Maybe they coordinate themselves with a virtual reflection on the screen or something so they needn't physically touch it? The background technology is indeed complex, but that doesn't really matter much. The biggest stopper is the fact that you are still putting and abstraction between yourself and the object you're manipulating. Touching something and directly manipulating (touch screens) is a very close coupling with little abstraction. But having to point, but coordinate your "reflection", or point but don't touch is a stretch.
- TomOfTTB 15y ago
  I'm not sure the abstraction bothers that many people. If every time you lifted your hand a virtual hand appeared on the screen I think people would get by. I certainly think Kinect is preferable to the Apple's current desktop solution (the touchpad touch interface) Part of my logic here is that all of this is a placeholder. EVENTUALLY someone will invent a smudge proof technology with tactile elements and we'll probably evolve to the point where are screens are angled (think Star Trek consoles) so the reaching isn't so much an issue. Until that comes along there will be abstractions and I think Kinect has a chance at being the best of those abstractions. (In the above I assume you meant a mouse by "moving your finger". If you meant an iPad like interaction I'd agree it is better but I think it is unfeasible for desktop interaction)
ugh 15y ago
How does it solve that? Walk me through that, my imagination must be lacking. You seem to be imagining a trackpad that doesn’t have to be touched, that can consequently track a much larger area and that can track 3D space. That’s pretty sweet, I guess, if it works reliably and is as precise as current trackpads but it doesn’t seem all that amazing.
- paul9290 15y ago
  I think that might work ... a holographic keyboard and trackpad that hangs in mid air and on any surface pointed at it. Try doing typing motions in mid air or with your arms on arm rest with your hands drooping down end of rest(arm rest scenario would be a split keyboard). The latter is more comfortable then what I am doing now - wrists and hands on metallic/plastic laptop and keyboard. Also, remember Kinect has a fairly solid voice controlled engine. I know many people who use the Android talk to text function regularly. I wouldnt mind using similar tech to execute searching, reading and communicating via text on the web.
r00fus 15y ago
Touch for mobile, however, avoids the screen-mess problem, as cleaning the screen is as simple as putting it in your pocket/holster (assuming you have a oleophobic screen or screen-protector) or wiping across your sleeve/pants.
6ren 15y ago
Remember that apple R&D, that found that mousing was quicker than keyboarding (because its low cognitive load doesn't interrupt your train of thought - it just seems quicker because you have amnesia when immersed in working out the right keys... [not applicable to expert fingers])? Perhaps touching the screen instead of acquiring the mouse would be quicker and even lower cognitive load. This wouldn't be for every interaction, but as an adjunct to the keyboard - as the mouse is. Not sure if true though - my mouse is at the same elevation as the keyboard, whereas the screen requires raising a hand about a foot. The cognitive load is lower though - people often instinctively touch the screen (if they haven't been screen-trained), especially when looking at someone else's screen. Perhaps that's a key? Collaborative use: a mouse is per person, but several can look and touch a screen.
- FrojoS 15y ago
  Do you have a link to that Apple study? I find that very exciting and never heard about it before. Though it would mean, that me and many other geeks are plain wrong about their preferred input method. You might be interested in DiamondTouch [1] which allows multiple users on one touch table. I tried it out at a presentation at the MediaLab in Nov 2010. The trick, if I remember correct, is that the user sits on a special chair. The chair, then detects an electric connection between the user and the table. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiamondTouch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiamondTouch
  - jamesbkel 15y ago
    I believe he's referring to this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
    - 6ren 15y ago
      Yes, that's it, thanks. For the GP, please note I said: [not applicable to expert fingers]
- bane 15y ago
  Interesting, I seem to remember a paper a decade or so ago (can't find it right now), where Apple concluded that forcing mouse use is designed to slow the user down. To give them more time for thought.
radley 15y ago
Kinect is ahead on touchless movement and position, but is far behind on "click".
mhansen 15y ago
Smudges just aren't a big deal if the screen has a backlight.

spot 15y ago

i don't think it solves the "starts to hurt" problem. it's not the touch that causes that, it's holding your arm up.

TomOfTTB 15y ago
Right but if you don't have to reach you don't have to use your shoulder to hold up your arm. Just your elbow to move your hand up above the keyboard so the Kinect Sensor can see it.
- leon_ 15y ago
  So what's the reason for a kinect sensor then? I'd rather hit a key on my keyboard (which gives me instant physical feedback) than hovering my hand in the air and trying to grab a file or something.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
It depends on how much you use it for. For typing, it's not so good. As a browser back button, it's comparable to mouse gestures in effort.

napierzaza 15y ago

I think that moving a finger to do an action is going to trump needing to move your whole arm or do jumping jacks for the same action. Especially since it would be fairly embarrassing for probably a whole generation of people before it became common place. But it might justify some of the more active users getting offices. What you're suggesting I imagine is points at an item but doesn't touch it. Maybe they coordinate themselves with a virtual reflection on the screen or something so they needn't physically touch it? The background technology is indeed complex, but that doesn't really matter much. The biggest stopper is the fact that you are still putting and abstraction between yourself and the object you're manipulating. Touching something and directly manipulating (touch screens) is a very close coupling with little abstraction. But having to point, but coordinate your "reflection", or point but don't touch is a stretch.

TomOfTTB 15y ago
I'm not sure the abstraction bothers that many people. If every time you lifted your hand a virtual hand appeared on the screen I think people would get by. I certainly think Kinect is preferable to the Apple's current desktop solution (the touchpad touch interface) Part of my logic here is that all of this is a placeholder. EVENTUALLY someone will invent a smudge proof technology with tactile elements and we'll probably evolve to the point where are screens are angled (think Star Trek consoles) so the reaching isn't so much an issue. Until that comes along there will be abstractions and I think Kinect has a chance at being the best of those abstractions. (In the above I assume you meant a mouse by "moving your finger". If you meant an iPad like interaction I'd agree it is better but I think it is unfeasible for desktop interaction)

ugh 15y ago

How does it solve that? Walk me through that, my imagination must be lacking. You seem to be imagining a trackpad that doesn’t have to be touched, that can consequently track a much larger area and that can track 3D space. That’s pretty sweet, I guess, if it works reliably and is as precise as current trackpads but it doesn’t seem all that amazing.

paul9290 15y ago
I think that might work ... a holographic keyboard and trackpad that hangs in mid air and on any surface pointed at it. Try doing typing motions in mid air or with your arms on arm rest with your hands drooping down end of rest(arm rest scenario would be a split keyboard). The latter is more comfortable then what I am doing now - wrists and hands on metallic/plastic laptop and keyboard. Also, remember Kinect has a fairly solid voice controlled engine. I know many people who use the Android talk to text function regularly. I wouldnt mind using similar tech to execute searching, reading and communicating via text on the web.

r00fus 15y ago

Touch for mobile, however, avoids the screen-mess problem, as cleaning the screen is as simple as putting it in your pocket/holster (assuming you have a oleophobic screen or screen-protector) or wiping across your sleeve/pants.

6ren 15y ago

Remember that apple R&D, that found that mousing was quicker than keyboarding (because its low cognitive load doesn't interrupt your train of thought - it just seems quicker because you have amnesia when immersed in working out the right keys... [not applicable to expert fingers])? Perhaps touching the screen instead of acquiring the mouse would be quicker and even lower cognitive load. This wouldn't be for every interaction, but as an adjunct to the keyboard - as the mouse is. Not sure if true though - my mouse is at the same elevation as the keyboard, whereas the screen requires raising a hand about a foot. The cognitive load is lower though - people often instinctively touch the screen (if they haven't been screen-trained), especially when looking at someone else's screen. Perhaps that's a key? Collaborative use: a mouse is per person, but several can look and touch a screen.

FrojoS 15y ago
Do you have a link to that Apple study? I find that very exciting and never heard about it before. Though it would mean, that me and many other geeks are plain wrong about their preferred input method. You might be interested in DiamondTouch [1] which allows multiple users on one touch table. I tried it out at a presentation at the MediaLab in Nov 2010. The trick, if I remember correct, is that the user sits on a special chair. The chair, then detects an electric connection between the user and the table. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiamondTouch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiamondTouch
- jamesbkel 15y ago
  I believe he's referring to this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657135
  - 6ren 15y ago
    Yes, that's it, thanks. For the GP, please note I said: [not applicable to expert fingers]
bane 15y ago
Interesting, I seem to remember a paper a decade or so ago (can't find it right now), where Apple concluded that forcing mouse use is designed to slow the user down. To give them more time for thought.

radley 15y ago

Kinect is ahead on touchless movement and position, but is far behind on "click".

mhansen 15y ago

Smudges just aren't a big deal if the screen has a backlight.