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I suspect you're setting up a false dichotomy. There are more choices on theology than ones that require you to check your brain in at the door, such as 1. fund

I suspect you're setting up a false dichotomy. There are more choices on theology than ones that require you to check your brain in at the door, such as 1. fundamentalism and 2. feel-good pop psychology. I am not taught emotion over logic. In fact, the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (a framework derived from but not described by him) has you evaluate beliefs with reason being a co-equal base. In confirmation and later in-depth adult classes, we were instructed to wrestle with the scripture. For example, we dug into the context of the times to understand better why certain things would have been said. We acknowledged selected verses made no sense. We agreed some parts we have no choice but to disregard. We frankly don't take Revelations that seriously because it's mostly batshit crazy. :-) I am not taught testimony over evidence. My church fully embraces evolution. We see Genesis for the story and the poetry. Authority beyond understanding: that gets back into the theological allegiance insisted on by the fundamentalists mainly.

folkrav 6y ago
As much as I appreciate your level headed approach of the whole thing, the very basis of most religion is based on _faith_ that [insert relevant scriptures] are holding some truth about the very existence and power of [insert omnipotent entity]. I'll be honest, I have a hard time putting this very fundamental point as having any basis in logic and reason. Even putting beliefs at the same level as reason is rather questionable, IMHO. Edit: I'm not here to tell you you're wrong or to question your beliefs. You're very much free to hold them. I'm just having a hard time equating religion with objectivity when they are fundamentally rooted in something subjective by nature.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  I agree with you that it's not based on logic and reason. And I am OK with that. The mystery and subjectiveness is part of the point and part of reality that we need to grapple with.
  - sidlls 6y ago
    "Mystery" and "subjectiveness" are euphemistic descriptions of mythology and fairy tales, used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today. People who go to church are implicitly supporting these things. Some of them have an excuse, in that they were simply raised that way and never had an opportunity for enlightenment. People who should know better don't have that excuse.
    - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
      > used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today People who want to war will use any reason they can. Many have used religion, unfortunately. Mao and Hitler didn't, though.
- Mertax 6y ago
  While I should attempt to create objective and rational explanation for everything, I think most people recognize I'd be hubristic to assume I can do this in all cases. Whether or not a belief system has to come into play is perhaps subjective. The irony is that I think most belief systems have the staying power they do because they cannot be entirely discredited through logic and reason.
- grogenaut 6y ago
  I went to a Catholic highschool as a non-catholic. It was taught by marianists and we had visiting jesuits often. They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. They were very harsh on everyone's beliefs and made you analyze them. It didn't work for me but I appreciated the emphasis on critical thinking. I did enjoy the classes where we just gutted and analyzed the bible like any other literary work, they were not shy about it and it was fun to watch it shock the "devout Catholic kids".
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    > They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. So the absence of evidence is evidence of the supernatural? Isn't this the god-of-the-gaps?
  - folkrav 6y ago
    > They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic I'm fine with this... until they start proposing that the explanation for "you can't explain it all with logic" is "therefore there is an almighty God" rather than "therefore we don't how it works yet". At this point, my level of faith approaches zero (I sit somewhere along the lines of agnosticism or apatheism, depending on my mood) so you're losing me completely.
IsopropylHarbor 6y ago
Methodist Quadrilateral still teaches their followers to view issues and compare them to their scripture, then their traditions, then reason, and Christian experiences... Those are literally the four pillars of Wesleyan, which are all emotion over logic.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  "reason", one of the "four pillars of [the] Wesleyan [Quadrilateral]" is "all emotion over logic"?
  - IsopropylHarbor 6y ago
    Yes, but you've conveniently left out your other pillars... Reasoning is just the act of thinking. An explanation for something which, according to you, should be framed around: Scripture, Tradition, and Christian Experiences. Scripture: Tells you how to feel (emotion) Tradition: Tells you this is how we've always felt (emotion) Christian Experience: Is a grouping of Scripture and Tradition (emotion)
    - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
      Reason is also the invitation to use our God-given intellect to help us come to conclusions. Otherwise we're disparaging God by disparaging that intellect. Otherwise, yes, the other three bases of the Quadrilateral aren't "reason".
coliveira 6y ago
You just said that beliefs and reason are a co-equal base. This is exactly against reason, as reason cannot be bended in some cases just because you believe it should not apply in certain areas. That's why your denomination continues to subscribe to ideas that go against reason like Trinity, just to name a very common one.

folkrav 6y ago

As much as I appreciate your level headed approach of the whole thing, the very basis of most religion is based on _faith_ that [insert relevant scriptures] are holding some truth about the very existence and power of [insert omnipotent entity]. I'll be honest, I have a hard time putting this very fundamental point as having any basis in logic and reason. Even putting beliefs at the same level as reason is rather questionable, IMHO. Edit: I'm not here to tell you you're wrong or to question your beliefs. You're very much free to hold them. I'm just having a hard time equating religion with objectivity when they are fundamentally rooted in something subjective by nature.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago
I agree with you that it's not based on logic and reason. And I am OK with that. The mystery and subjectiveness is part of the point and part of reality that we need to grapple with.
- sidlls 6y ago
  "Mystery" and "subjectiveness" are euphemistic descriptions of mythology and fairy tales, used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today. People who go to church are implicitly supporting these things. Some of them have an excuse, in that they were simply raised that way and never had an opportunity for enlightenment. People who should know better don't have that excuse.
  - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
    > used to justify some pretty terrific political and military policies even today People who want to war will use any reason they can. Many have used religion, unfortunately. Mao and Hitler didn't, though.
Mertax 6y ago
While I should attempt to create objective and rational explanation for everything, I think most people recognize I'd be hubristic to assume I can do this in all cases. Whether or not a belief system has to come into play is perhaps subjective. The irony is that I think most belief systems have the staying power they do because they cannot be entirely discredited through logic and reason.
grogenaut 6y ago
I went to a Catholic highschool as a non-catholic. It was taught by marianists and we had visiting jesuits often. They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. They were very harsh on everyone's beliefs and made you analyze them. It didn't work for me but I appreciated the emphasis on critical thinking. I did enjoy the classes where we just gutted and analyzed the bible like any other literary work, they were not shy about it and it was fun to watch it shock the "devout Catholic kids".
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  > They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic. So the absence of evidence is evidence of the supernatural? Isn't this the god-of-the-gaps?
- folkrav 6y ago
  > They generally taught that you reached your faith through logic and exploration and doubt of faith until you hit the point where you realize you can't explain it all with logic I'm fine with this... until they start proposing that the explanation for "you can't explain it all with logic" is "therefore there is an almighty God" rather than "therefore we don't how it works yet". At this point, my level of faith approaches zero (I sit somewhere along the lines of agnosticism or apatheism, depending on my mood) so you're losing me completely.

IsopropylHarbor 6y ago

Methodist Quadrilateral still teaches their followers to view issues and compare them to their scripture, then their traditions, then reason, and Christian experiences... Those are literally the four pillars of Wesleyan, which are all emotion over logic.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago
"reason", one of the "four pillars of [the] Wesleyan [Quadrilateral]" is "all emotion over logic"?
- IsopropylHarbor 6y ago
  Yes, but you've conveniently left out your other pillars... Reasoning is just the act of thinking. An explanation for something which, according to you, should be framed around: Scripture, Tradition, and Christian Experiences. Scripture: Tells you how to feel (emotion) Tradition: Tells you this is how we've always felt (emotion) Christian Experience: Is a grouping of Scripture and Tradition (emotion)
  - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
    Reason is also the invitation to use our God-given intellect to help us come to conclusions. Otherwise we're disparaging God by disparaging that intellect. Otherwise, yes, the other three bases of the Quadrilateral aren't "reason".

coliveira 6y ago

You just said that beliefs and reason are a co-equal base. This is exactly against reason, as reason cannot be bended in some cases just because you believe it should not apply in certain areas. That's why your denomination continues to subscribe to ideas that go against reason like Trinity, just to name a very common one.