6 ms·

It goes beyond fairy tails. There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Yes, we’ve had to create our own social fabric that a church would’ve been, but as our loved ones and friends are spread across the country and world, a weekly gathering would do us little good. The challenge is to build community without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. We strongly support LGBTQ+ folks, the idea of ethical non monogamy, people who elect to be child free, etc, which through our travels and experiences with religious believers, we’ve found incompatible with any church social fabric.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  > ...without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. You're responding to fundamentalism and certain non-fundamentalist denominations that take fundamentalist views on selected issues. Look at recent denominational schisms: Episcopal Church (United States), the United Methodist Church (resolution is on the table but delayed due to the pandemic), etc. The people on the right side of history and the church are winning, and the bigots and fundamentalists are splitting off.
- splithalf 6y ago
  You may find that you judge others, and others judge you, without the help of religions. Some would say that’s one theme of Christian belief, “judge not, lest we be judged ourselves.” You are ironically doing what you find fault in, judging others. “Christians are too judgmental.” Well, so are non-religious folks and they don’t have any scripture or religious leaders to remind them to be humble, not to cast stones, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor. If nothing else look for counter examples, the many people of faith who do a lot of good in the world through charity and spiritual work. I assure you, these people exist. Don’t fall prey to confirmation bias and a culture that stigmatizes faith and spirituality as unsophisticated and oppressive, it’s literally the opposite of the truth if you look at it empirically.
  - praisewoke 6y ago
    Woke scolds are more judgmental than any old church marm but have no God they feel they should humble themselves before. The leaders of the Intersectional crusade see themselves as the highest moral paragons and the whole faith lacks self awareness
    - nonotreally 6y ago
      More judgemental than the church? How do you reconcile the entire gay communities experience with this statement?
nonotreally 6y ago
That's a lie that religions keep perpetuating. Many social groups exist that are just as fulfilling. My gym for example is full of people who actively work in the community, help each other and gather multiple times per week to better themselves and encourage their community. Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. It does offer a lot of downsides though.
- dagw 6y ago
  Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. While this might be true in theory, I have not found it true in practice. I am no longer religious and I have not attended church for 20+ years, but despite trying many of these secular 'alternatives' to church I have yet to find anything as open, welcoming and socially supportive as I found church. edit: Yes, I know this isn't everybody's experience, and yes some churches can be extremely bigoted, exclusionary and downright evil to people they perceive as 'others'.
  - randcraw 6y ago
    What you say about churches being welcoming agrees with my experiences too, from what I've seen of others, given that I don't attend. But I think faith is only part of the reason for attending. Essential in the choice to join a church is the desire to seek out a kind of 'marriage', where for better and worse, you promise to look out for others in an extended family and to help them when they need you. That sense of belonging is one of the big things that brings everyone in a church together -- the wish to be part of a community that regularly joins together and where you can share your life with others. Membership in a social club can't do that.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - nonotreally 6y ago
      In the strongest possible terms, I reject this entirely. I'm trying to put into words how much I disagree and why, but I'm failing. Others have done a better job than I can. I can only recommend you read the strong counter opinions to your position. I wish you well. But I wont participate in these groups.
jordanpg 6y ago
While I agree that there is something important to be said for maintaining a sense of community, it obviously does not require any kind of supernatural belief to do so. I would argue that the cost paid by society due to the institutionalized anti-intellectualism embodied by the church and largely embraced by the government far exceeds whatever communitarian benefits the church itself contributes to society. Let's find those benefits elsewhere.
- praisewoke 6y ago
  > it obviously does not require any kind of supernatural belief to do so. How is this so obvious? Where's the counterexample? I've never lived it
  - fader 6y ago
    You've never seen a non-religious club? Or a political group? Or a volunteer society? There are plenty of non-religious communities all over the world. Look at any co-op if you want an example.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      But the thing is, these non-religious communities tend not to be stable long-term, they're not as well-coordinated, and don't seem to influence people's behavior all that much. Abstracted from all particulars of a given belief system, religions seem to be a refined, hyperoptimized form of community building.
      - nonotreally 6y ago
        This isn't true. Secular society is an example of this. We have common goals that we work towards. We don't have words for "gather once a week and do xyz" in many context, but that doesn't stop us for doing it. Join an electronics club and meet up every week for the next 10 years. People do this ALL the time and it isn't an issue.
  - InitialLastName 6y ago
jimhefferon 6y ago
> a sense of community I'm sorry to see the downvotes since this as an intelligent point. I'm not religious but one thing I do envy in my church-going friends is fellowship. I'm a man in my 60's, and maybe all this is not applicable for the majority of folks here. But people don't have groups like clubs or bowling leagues very much anymore. Watching TV at home is fine, but not enough. (I'm in a club that is now breaking up, as these things do, and I think there is a very good chance I will not see these friends regularly again, which is too bad.) Of course, I could volunteer at a food bank, etc., but people I know that are in a church seem to find it more natural.
- justaman 6y ago
  In my experience nothing has been able to replicate what religion does for communities. Every Sunday hundreds of people get together and chat over coffee before service. This mass gathering offers the opportunity to find other people with similar interests which in turn leads to small groups. Some will say, "That's what meetup.com is for.". I agree, meetup.com is great, but it doesn't have that central core of hundreds of people before splitting up into smaller groups. Meetup.com cuts out the larger group entirely and pushes people into smaller groups automatically. That's an important thing that gets lost.
  - gumby 6y ago
    I meet like minded friends from the group classes at they gym, working at a homeless shelter, some conferences, being on the school board. “Like minded” means these aren’t folks with whom I only discuss things related to how we met. That’s kind of how society works, right? If you go to some sort of religious festival it’s merely another form of this. I’m not even particularly gregarious.
- jordanpg 6y ago
  Much like claims about morality, the claim of the religious to be the only glue that can hold communities together is an obviously false claim that the religious get to make with a straight face because of the moment in history that we live in. In the United States, the primacy of Christianity over the last few hundred years has resulted in a culture that maintains nonsensical claims like these enshrined and untouchable. Of course, this had to change eventually because the underlying supernatural theories are self-evidently false. For minus the supernatural claims, religious is just another secular organization which fosters certain cultural and social beliefs, like many, many, many others. There is nothing special about religion and there never has been. Human beings do not require certain questions to be answered with recourse to magic in order to function. See the atomic theory for a counterexample. I beg the moderates among us to agree that community is good, but to insist that it need not come with ridiculous magic strings attached.
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
Any crawfish boil in Louisiana will disabuse you of that notion.
gspr 6y ago
> There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age. Would it not be healthier to center that community around something real? It doesn't have to be something serious, but something real would be good.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Yes, we’ve had to create our own social fabric that a church would’ve been, but as our loved ones and friends are spread across the country and world, a weekly gathering would do us little good. The challenge is to build community without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. We strongly support LGBTQ+ folks, the idea of ethical non monogamy, people who elect to be child free, etc, which through our travels and experiences with religious believers, we’ve found incompatible with any church social fabric.

AuthorizedCust 6y ago
> ...without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. You're responding to fundamentalism and certain non-fundamentalist denominations that take fundamentalist views on selected issues. Look at recent denominational schisms: Episcopal Church (United States), the United Methodist Church (resolution is on the table but delayed due to the pandemic), etc. The people on the right side of history and the church are winning, and the bigots and fundamentalists are splitting off.
splithalf 6y ago
You may find that you judge others, and others judge you, without the help of religions. Some would say that’s one theme of Christian belief, “judge not, lest we be judged ourselves.” You are ironically doing what you find fault in, judging others. “Christians are too judgmental.” Well, so are non-religious folks and they don’t have any scripture or religious leaders to remind them to be humble, not to cast stones, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor. If nothing else look for counter examples, the many people of faith who do a lot of good in the world through charity and spiritual work. I assure you, these people exist. Don’t fall prey to confirmation bias and a culture that stigmatizes faith and spirituality as unsophisticated and oppressive, it’s literally the opposite of the truth if you look at it empirically.
- praisewoke 6y ago
  Woke scolds are more judgmental than any old church marm but have no God they feel they should humble themselves before. The leaders of the Intersectional crusade see themselves as the highest moral paragons and the whole faith lacks self awareness
  - nonotreally 6y ago
    More judgemental than the church? How do you reconcile the entire gay communities experience with this statement?

nonotreally 6y ago

That's a lie that religions keep perpetuating. Many social groups exist that are just as fulfilling. My gym for example is full of people who actively work in the community, help each other and gather multiple times per week to better themselves and encourage their community. Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. It does offer a lot of downsides though.

dagw 6y ago
Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. While this might be true in theory, I have not found it true in practice. I am no longer religious and I have not attended church for 20+ years, but despite trying many of these secular 'alternatives' to church I have yet to find anything as open, welcoming and socially supportive as I found church. edit: Yes, I know this isn't everybody's experience, and yes some churches can be extremely bigoted, exclusionary and downright evil to people they perceive as 'others'.
- randcraw 6y ago
  What you say about churches being welcoming agrees with my experiences too, from what I've seen of others, given that I don't attend. But I think faith is only part of the reason for attending. Essential in the choice to join a church is the desire to seek out a kind of 'marriage', where for better and worse, you promise to look out for others in an extended family and to help them when they need you. That sense of belonging is one of the big things that brings everyone in a church together -- the wish to be part of a community that regularly joins together and where you can share your life with others. Membership in a social club can't do that.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nonotreally 6y ago
    In the strongest possible terms, I reject this entirely. I'm trying to put into words how much I disagree and why, but I'm failing. Others have done a better job than I can. I can only recommend you read the strong counter opinions to your position. I wish you well. But I wont participate in these groups.

jordanpg 6y ago

While I agree that there is something important to be said for maintaining a sense of community, it obviously does not require any kind of supernatural belief to do so. I would argue that the cost paid by society due to the institutionalized anti-intellectualism embodied by the church and largely embraced by the government far exceeds whatever communitarian benefits the church itself contributes to society. Let's find those benefits elsewhere.

praisewoke 6y ago
> it obviously does not require any kind of supernatural belief to do so. How is this so obvious? Where's the counterexample? I've never lived it
- fader 6y ago
  You've never seen a non-religious club? Or a political group? Or a volunteer society? There are plenty of non-religious communities all over the world. Look at any co-op if you want an example.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    But the thing is, these non-religious communities tend not to be stable long-term, they're not as well-coordinated, and don't seem to influence people's behavior all that much. Abstracted from all particulars of a given belief system, religions seem to be a refined, hyperoptimized form of community building.
    - nonotreally 6y ago
      This isn't true. Secular society is an example of this. We have common goals that we work towards. We don't have words for "gather once a week and do xyz" in many context, but that doesn't stop us for doing it. Join an electronics club and meet up every week for the next 10 years. People do this ALL the time and it isn't an issue.
- InitialLastName 6y ago

jimhefferon 6y ago

> a sense of community I'm sorry to see the downvotes since this as an intelligent point. I'm not religious but one thing I do envy in my church-going friends is fellowship. I'm a man in my 60's, and maybe all this is not applicable for the majority of folks here. But people don't have groups like clubs or bowling leagues very much anymore. Watching TV at home is fine, but not enough. (I'm in a club that is now breaking up, as these things do, and I think there is a very good chance I will not see these friends regularly again, which is too bad.) Of course, I could volunteer at a food bank, etc., but people I know that are in a church seem to find it more natural.

justaman 6y ago
In my experience nothing has been able to replicate what religion does for communities. Every Sunday hundreds of people get together and chat over coffee before service. This mass gathering offers the opportunity to find other people with similar interests which in turn leads to small groups. Some will say, "That's what meetup.com is for.". I agree, meetup.com is great, but it doesn't have that central core of hundreds of people before splitting up into smaller groups. Meetup.com cuts out the larger group entirely and pushes people into smaller groups automatically. That's an important thing that gets lost.
- gumby 6y ago
  I meet like minded friends from the group classes at they gym, working at a homeless shelter, some conferences, being on the school board. “Like minded” means these aren’t folks with whom I only discuss things related to how we met. That’s kind of how society works, right? If you go to some sort of religious festival it’s merely another form of this. I’m not even particularly gregarious.
jordanpg 6y ago
Much like claims about morality, the claim of the religious to be the only glue that can hold communities together is an obviously false claim that the religious get to make with a straight face because of the moment in history that we live in. In the United States, the primacy of Christianity over the last few hundred years has resulted in a culture that maintains nonsensical claims like these enshrined and untouchable. Of course, this had to change eventually because the underlying supernatural theories are self-evidently false. For minus the supernatural claims, religious is just another secular organization which fosters certain cultural and social beliefs, like many, many, many others. There is nothing special about religion and there never has been. Human beings do not require certain questions to be answered with recourse to magic in order to function. See the atomic theory for a counterexample. I beg the moderates among us to agree that community is good, but to insist that it need not come with ridiculous magic strings attached.

MisterBastahrd 6y ago

Any crawfish boil in Louisiana will disabuse you of that notion.

gspr 6y ago

> There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age. Would it not be healthier to center that community around something real? It doesn't have to be something serious, but something real would be good.