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So there’s no room for language advocates? No one can discuss the pros and cons of a language because this author steeps themselves so deep in programming meta-

So there’s no room for language advocates? No one can discuss the pros and cons of a language because this author steeps themselves so deep in programming meta-talk, that it’s all they hear and have grown tired of it? What does the world gain from non-interest in programming languages? > Pick the language and stack based on your team’s needs and comfort, based on your business’s need and risk tolerance, and based on how easy it will be to produce software for your target users in that language or framework. That’s your criteria. Not what I think, not what UBM thinks, and certainly not the language or framework de jour on Hacker News. How do I determine the above if I’m not allowed to dictate which language I think is best? Especially if I’m given several options for languages that are similar?

codyb 6y ago
The tweet the author quotes says "It's 2021, why aren't you programming in Clojure? It's time." If... you were in a software team, and said... "I think Clojure is the best choice for this project because the talent we have is comfortable with Lisp programming and functional paradigms, we'll be able to deploy with the full featured JVM which is frequently updated and has a ton of libraries, and X and Y, and Z" I think the author would be totally fine with your statement because as he notes in the article, you're taking into account the particular needs you have for your current project and the resources you have available in order to produce something for the end user. The author is saying (in my words) "blanket statements like 'why aren't you using Clojure?' are bad because they create classes within the software community and don't take into account the real world considerations you need to look at when you're building something, you're just creating hierarchy for no reason" Which seems more reasonable. Basically... don't consider yourself great cause you're using Clojure and someone else is using PHP. Instead... consider yourself great for creating value for end users and don't be haughty about your programming language, or stack. Use the tools that are proper for the job instead of making the intern feel like shit cause you're so great at Lisp and they just got out of college with some basic OO skills. I think your comment about "there's no room for language advocates" takes things to a level the author never intended. You can say "I think we should use language X for project Y because of A B and C", that's totally fine. Saying "Wow, you're not using Clojure in 2021? What are you an amateur?" is just kind of a dick statement.
kristopolous 6y ago
No that's not it. It's toxicity of a culture of elitism and a fetishizing of language purity. People get pilled on languages and tools. It's totally unhealthy. They guide decisions based on faith and optimism and never check back in with reality
- yepthatsreality 6y ago
  Yes and no. I see this with junior developers who think they’ve gain senior insight. Really they just learned to be efficient with a specific set of tools. JS for example is loved by Junior devs. However due to JS’s flexibility they may later decide they like Typescript because typing can eliminate edge cases that JS is flexible with. The knowledge gain isn’t whether Typescript is a better language or not but that the developer learned why more experienced developers prefer using Typescript. Something that may have been pounded into their brain but was just noise until they were forced to deal with it.
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    Sorry that's still not it. Languages and tools exist as socially created institutions. They have all the same entrapments and faults as any other institution. Orthodoxy, zealotry, blind loyalty, mobbing, cultist behavior, these can happen in any human institution; a subreddit, financial institution, political party, exercise system, startup, religion, and yes, even computer software. It doesn't have to, but the point is it can and we shouldn't ignore the tripwires. Computers don't magically make the humans that use them immune from such possibilities
    - yepthatsreality 6y ago
      That's not it. None of those problems are caused by elitism for a language. Advocating and language elitism are symptoms of larger ideas. Attacking elitism in language choice is silly and a waste of time as it's naturally inclined to happen. People do give a shit and for a myriad of reasons.
      - 6y ago
herdcall 6y ago
There is, but that's more for academics and of less interest/relevance to practitioners in many cases.

codyb 6y ago

The tweet the author quotes says "It's 2021, why aren't you programming in Clojure? It's time." If... you were in a software team, and said... "I think Clojure is the best choice for this project because the talent we have is comfortable with Lisp programming and functional paradigms, we'll be able to deploy with the full featured JVM which is frequently updated and has a ton of libraries, and X and Y, and Z" I think the author would be totally fine with your statement because as he notes in the article, you're taking into account the particular needs you have for your current project and the resources you have available in order to produce something for the end user. The author is saying (in my words) "blanket statements like 'why aren't you using Clojure?' are bad because they create classes within the software community and don't take into account the real world considerations you need to look at when you're building something, you're just creating hierarchy for no reason" Which seems more reasonable. Basically... don't consider yourself great cause you're using Clojure and someone else is using PHP. Instead... consider yourself great for creating value for end users and don't be haughty about your programming language, or stack. Use the tools that are proper for the job instead of making the intern feel like shit cause you're so great at Lisp and they just got out of college with some basic OO skills. I think your comment about "there's no room for language advocates" takes things to a level the author never intended. You can say "I think we should use language X for project Y because of A B and C", that's totally fine. Saying "Wow, you're not using Clojure in 2021? What are you an amateur?" is just kind of a dick statement.

kristopolous 6y ago

No that's not it. It's toxicity of a culture of elitism and a fetishizing of language purity. People get pilled on languages and tools. It's totally unhealthy. They guide decisions based on faith and optimism and never check back in with reality

yepthatsreality 6y ago
Yes and no. I see this with junior developers who think they’ve gain senior insight. Really they just learned to be efficient with a specific set of tools. JS for example is loved by Junior devs. However due to JS’s flexibility they may later decide they like Typescript because typing can eliminate edge cases that JS is flexible with. The knowledge gain isn’t whether Typescript is a better language or not but that the developer learned why more experienced developers prefer using Typescript. Something that may have been pounded into their brain but was just noise until they were forced to deal with it.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  Sorry that's still not it. Languages and tools exist as socially created institutions. They have all the same entrapments and faults as any other institution. Orthodoxy, zealotry, blind loyalty, mobbing, cultist behavior, these can happen in any human institution; a subreddit, financial institution, political party, exercise system, startup, religion, and yes, even computer software. It doesn't have to, but the point is it can and we shouldn't ignore the tripwires. Computers don't magically make the humans that use them immune from such possibilities
  - yepthatsreality 6y ago
    That's not it. None of those problems are caused by elitism for a language. Advocating and language elitism are symptoms of larger ideas. Attacking elitism in language choice is silly and a waste of time as it's naturally inclined to happen. People do give a shit and for a myriad of reasons.
    - 6y ago

herdcall 6y ago

There is, but that's more for academics and of less interest/relevance to practitioners in many cases.