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Many companies would just never touch an AGPL package, and while there are other languages out there with commercial licenses (e.g. Delphi), those are not nearl
by dangoor 6y ago
Many companies would just never touch an AGPL package, and while there are other languages out there with commercial licenses (e.g. Delphi), those are not nearly as mainstream as the open & freely available ones.
Deno is competing against Node.js, which is MIT-licensed. Deno is arguably better, but it would have to be _so much better_ to get people to even give it a second look if it was commercial.
- threatofrain 6y agoUnfortunately Deno gave up on their most unique differentiator, the TS [runtime].
- lucacasonato 6y agoNo we didn't?! Where did you get this info from? Deno is made to work with TypeScript out of the box. The Deno Standard Library is written in TypeScript: https://deno.land/std https://deno.land/std. Most userland modules are TypeScript too.
- threatofrain 6y agoWasn't a TypeScript runtime the original Deno selling point? Didn't the project have to pivot away from that?
- Soremwar 6y agoThey had to remove it from the Deno build process so Deno internals didn't need a compiler. However TypeScript support remains untouched and receives constant updates
- lucacasonato 6y agoNo. Nothing has changed about Typescript support since 1.0. It is just as well supported as JS. We never removed support...
- threatofrain 6y agoSo Deno is still committing to TS runtime?
- rhencke 6y agoY E S
- lucacasonato 6y agoHeck yeah
- threatofrain 6y agoI don't know where I got so misinformed. I thought Deno had stopped going for a TS runtime.
- rhencke 6y agoUnfortunately, the words "Deno", "TypeScript", and "removal" made for good headline material, and what was effectively a design document about performance optimization[1] became misinterpreted by many as heralding the removal of TypeScript from Deno, despite the document being updated with a explanatory warning that it was a very deep technical document about a specific part of architecture, and that Deno remains completely committed to supporting TypeScript forever. 1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_WvwHl7BXUPmoiSeD8G83JmS8ypsTPqed4Btkqkn_-4/preview?pru=AAABcrrKL5k*nQ4LS569NsRRAce2BVanXw https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_WvwHl7BXUPmoiSeD8G83JmS...
- forty 6y agoWas does a TS runtime means anyway? Doesn't checking types at run time rather than at compile time a pure loss?
- barry27 6y agoright. "typescript runtime" is nonsense.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pocketgrok 6y agoI don’t remember “TS runtime” as you’re meaning it ever being pitched. I don’t think Ryan would consider that in scope for Deno unless MS wanted to collaborate on it.
- threatofrain 6y agoI do find the messaging to be confusing, because what would you think I meant if I talked about the runtime of Elixir or Scala? This is the marketing line on the front page of the Deno project: > A secure runtime for JavaScript and TypeScript. They are using the same term "runtime" to describe JS as well as TS. All replies here by Deno team members use the language "Typescript support" but nobody here is saying TypeScript runtime.
- not_knuth 6y agoIf it helps, I think this is the main source of misinformation: https://startfunction.com/deno-will-stop-using-typescript/ https://startfunction.com/deno-will-stop-using-typescript/ It featured on HN some time back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23592483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23592483
- threatofrain 6y agoI do find the messaging to be confusing, because what would you think I meant if I talked about the runtime of Elixir or Scala? This is the marketing line on the front page of the Deno project: > A secure runtime for JavaScript and TypeScript. They are using the same term "runtime" to describe JS as well as TS. All replies here by Deno team members use the language "Typescript support" but nobody here is saying TypeScript runtime.
- not_knuth 6y agoI can understand where the confusion comes from, but I think it's a matter of context. I would never have thought that they would want to build a runtime that runs TS directly. The effort would just be insane. Hence the implied step that TS needs to first be transpiled to JS before getting executed in the runtime was always in the back of my head and I'm guessing this is the way most people think as well. And from a black-box perspective, whether TS first gets transpiled to JS or run directly doesn't make a difference. In that sense one could argue that it is a "TS runtime". This is a petty semantics-fight I don't want to get into though and I've probably already said too much :). If you are interested in something that gets close to a TS runtime though, have a look at AssemblyScript [0]. It compiles to WASM and tries to keep most of the syntax of TS. Very interesting project imo.
- wperron 6y agoWe most certainly did not, TypeScript is and continues to be a primary concern for us and we plan on continuing to support it as a first-class citizen of the ecosystem
- threatofrain 6y agoIs Deno still going for TS runtime? > Deno is a runtime for JavaScript and TypeScript that is based on the V8 JavaScript engine and the Rust programming language.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- wperron 6y agoInsofar as we take `.ts` files seamlessly yes -- though to be clear, one does not simply "run" TypeScript. There are no runtimes for TypeScript directly (there's AssemblyScript that _looks_ like TypeScript, but isn't exactly TypeScript) We've simply incorporated the type-checking and transpiling steps into the deno cli, making it super simple to get going, no config needed.
- forty 6y agoExactly. And I guess the package still needs to be compiled to JS before deploying to production? To avoid shipping a full TS compiler on a production server which would be a crazy thing to do.
- hctaw 6y agoThat's why you dual license, which is significantly more approachable. "This is AGPL/GPL unless you pay $200/month per developer seat" is a common licensing scheme for frameworks, people aren't scared by it.
- frenchy 6y agoIn some places, the people who hold the purse strings are rather far removed from the actual developers, that it's a lot easier to just go with something that's "free". I think this is one of the reasons why cloud computing monoliths like AWS are so successful. It's way easier to set up a $50/month VM on AWS then to get permission to spend $5/month on a VM elsewhere.
- hctaw 6y agoEnterprise sales requires paying salespeople for their network of potential customers and time to reach them. The sales cycle is long and risky for companies that can't absorb the cost of the sales salary and time to get revenue. Unless you have a ridiculously good relationship with a handful of organizations or a perfect system for fitting into existing infrastructures, it's a big mistake to care about selling something to those organizations. AWS is popular because it's free for companies with a high potential for getting big (like YC companies) and they can absorb the costs of the sales cycle.
- reader_mode 6y ago> This is AGPL/GPL unless you pay $200/month per developer seat" is a common licensing scheme for frameworks, people aren't scared by it Really ? I can think of QT - but that's such a huge body of work with some very specific use cases in which it doesn't really have competition (aside from DOM based shell for UI maybe, but that has it's own problems and is often a hassle to get working). In this case Node is established, Deno is going to have an up hill battle to gain that mindshare on equal footing, adding a licensing restriction would probably kill it off the ground.
- throwaway2037 6y agoI promise: No trolling with this question. Can anyone name a few that come to mind? I only know about one (Qt: GPLv2/3 or LGPLv3), but I don't use a lot of commercial software. Interestingly, Qt looks about 233 USD per month per seat! Ref: https://www.qt.io/pricing https://www.qt.io/pricing