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I had a unique experience growing up in a religious family (that is very tolerant and respectful of all world religions) while simultaneously being immersed in

• gottebp 6y ago
  As one who loves the Catholic faith, despite the failings of its members, and who yet also fails to live it well -- I agree with you that hypocrisy is a massive problem. The group Jesus is harshest with in the Gospels is in fact the hypocrites. He even calls them white washed tombs full of dead men's bones! What a lamentable state of things. G.K. Chesterton's words in "What's Wrong with the World" come to mind where he points out "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried." Perhaps this applies to all major belief systems though, and not Christianity alone.
• symfoniq 6y ago
  The world will be better off when we abolish freedom of belief? That doesn't sound like a world I'd want to live in.
  • visarga 6y ago
    There's a long way from freedom of belief to the kind of identity politics practiced by religious groups. Ironically religious people are under the risk of getting cancelled by their own group if they dare wrongthink, so they are less free.
    • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >There's a long way from freedom of belief to the kind of identity politics practiced by religious groups. Ironically religious people are under the risk of getting cancelled by their own group if they dare wrongthink, so they are less free. Are we discussing organized religions or political parties? Your comment could apply to either.
  • whalesalad 6y ago
    When I say abolish big religion I mean the way it’s integrated so tightly in society. The war on drugs, abortion, non profit tax avoidance, so many fucked up things stem from the belief that my religion is better than yours and you need to believe what I believe. You can believe whatever the hell you want - but it’s not for you or society or anyone else to decide how I can live my life.
    • bobthechef 6y ago
      > When I say abolish big religion I mean the way it’s integrated so tightly in society. There has never existed a society that didn't have a religion. Everyone has a religion, what they take to be the highest good, what they worship. It just so happens that those who naively brush off what they take to be "religion" simply, probably tacitly, take on some vulgar and crude variety. > The war on drugs, abortion, non profit tax avoidancee, so many fucked up things You realize that your views are also views, right? You presume some kind of objectivity while denying that right to others. Sounds kind of intolerant to me, especially if we go by your own prejudices. You also appear to have scapegoated religion for various things you don't like (mind you, things like the opposition to abortion is a moral question, not a sectarian one, though sadly, the myth that it is seems to persist, probably because it allows militant pro-choice types to exploit "religious freedom" as a way to frame it as a "private matter" since religion under a liberal regime is subordinated to liberal doctrine, which has the interesting effect of elevating liberalism to the rank of state religion). > the belief that my religion is better than yours and you need to believe what I believe Hold on. Two things are being conflated. First, if there is one truth, then either a religion is true (or at least contains some truth), or it isn't (or contains falsehoods). That which is true should be accepted, that which isn't shouldn't. The idea that religion is just a thing we believe simply because we wish to believe it is absurd. You believe something because you have good reasons to believe it, not because you wish it to be the case. Second, what do you mean by "you need to believe what I believe"? This has nothing to do with what others believe. It has everything to do with whether something is true. Of course, you shouldn't try to force anyone to believe anything, even if it is or you think it is true, though any society will punish or constrain someone _acting_ on wrong beliefs in some cases. All legal and judicial systems do this, obviously, and they can do this with a tangible tenacity. I'd also add that there what falls under "religion" differs enough that it makes no sense to criticize "religion" categorically. This kind of approach typically conceals a particular real or imagined religion that the person in question has in mind, perhaps particular experiences, and from which that person hastily generalizes to "religion" as a category. The error here should be obvious, especially if you take into consideration what I've already written, namely, that everyone has some kind of religion, however vague or crude or mundane or insane.
• liaukovv 6y ago
  As you said yourself, people do it to belong to a social circle. What are you replacing this extremely important function with? Vacuum?
  • WJW 6y ago
    Sports, online forums, student fraternities, social clubs of every variety, etc. There are many ways to get active in society that don't involve beliefs in higher beings.
    • da_big_ghey 6y ago
      in theories these are perhaps able to replace a religions activities. in reality we are notice large decreasing in socialisation in young people and so this replacement is maybe not working so well as in theories. even social clubs you have mention are on declining also. one go to rotary or others and it is all old persons. have a shared value system is making for great connecting between persons.
    • Mertax 6y ago
      Few of these instill purpose and influence behavior of a person in the same way that religion does. You might disagree, but I would argue that the virtues extolled by the vast majority of religious organizations are good ideals to be striving for and wonder what is going to replace this?
      • gregkerzhner 6y ago
        I would love to see stats on religious prevalence and incidence of crime, homocide, etc. My guess is that such stats won’t put religion (especially Christianity) in a favorable light.
        • deleted 6y ago
          [deleted]
      • MisterBastahrd 6y ago
• Loughla 6y ago
  >The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. This is, consistently, what I hear from friends and family as to why they have drifted away from the Catholic church, and is solidly my own reason as well. You see people, day-in-day out being terrible, judgmental, hateful people, except on Sunday when they're in the front row being holier than thou. It grates on you, and leaves a bad taste. It's even worse, because those people tend to be the ones who gravitate toward leadership positions within your local church. My theory is that people have always felt that way, but it was harder to nail down these awful people before social media. Now that everyone puts everything on social media, it's easy to see, in plain black and white print, that the deacon really is an asshole. The one thing that I do genuinely lament from the death of large religious congregations (at least in my part of the states), is that there are no replacement social constructs for people to gather and feel a sense of community. I'm certain this has something to do with the splintering of American discourse; not the religion inherently, but the social aspect is lacking and legitimately missed by most folks.
  • RHSeeger 6y ago
    > You see people, day-in-day out being terrible, judgmental, hateful people, except on Sunday when they're in the front row being holier than thou. But you see this nearly everywhere, with every type of organization/group. A prime example would be politicians and political groups who constantly talk about how they want to help people, but then throw those same people under the bus to get what they want. This is not something unique to any one type of organization. From my experience, there are lots of good people in most religious organizations. I would venture to say, at least in the northeast US (which is where most of my experience is), it's the majority of the people. However, as with any organization, it's common for the bad apples to be the ones that rise in power, because they don't care who they hurt to get do so. This, too, is true everywhere.
    • nonameiguess 6y ago
      Those other institutions are also losing credibility. Fewer people than ever claim membership in unions, political parties, and public office holders and legislatures as groups are continually setting new records for low approval ratings.
• YinglingLight 6y ago
  2013 is calling, it wants its fedora back.
• giantg2 6y ago
  "I can’t help but think the world will be better off when we abolish big religion." So those people who want to belong to a group and believe in it without seeing what might be better can move into political groups for their identity? The actions and methods are human nature, so I think they will just move to a different domain.
  • Applejinx 6y ago
    The OP says 'U.S.'. US churches ARE political groups, in practical terms.
    • giantg2 6y ago
      Any organization is political. The difference is whether we are talking about the organization or the members. Most members are not that politically involved. There are plenty of people who are very religious and participate in the religious ceremonies. If these people no longer had that, it's possible some of them would move into material participation in political parties, offices, etc.
      • encryptluks2 6y ago
        Or they may join a band, or choir, or local sporting team, or organize/join an event on meetup. While some of these may be political they are often much less political than a church.
        • giantg2 6y ago
          Which is why I said "some". It depends on how they participate in the church as to whether or not another activity would be more or less political.
• Guthur 6y ago
  The hypocrisy is that they preach and ideal and fail to achieve it? One thinks this is because ideals are meant to strived towards but not necessarily achieved. A solution of throwing out ideals because they are hard to achieve and a little myopic in my opinion. What i find an interesting thought is that you either believe these teachings are from a higher power or they are just from man. The former had obvious implications, but the with the latter you will then need to answer the question is it written by lunatics or people that actually knew what they were doing?
  • AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > The hypocrisy is that they preach and ideal and fail to achieve it? No, I don't think that's the case. I think the hypocrisy is that they don't try. What turns people off of organized religion is seeing so many who participate with words but not with their hearts. Of course when you have Jesus Christ as your role model you're going to fail to live up to it a lot of the time, but if you're not at least trying then in what sense are you a Christian?
• AcerbicZero 6y ago
  I’m not religious in the slightest, but the hypocrisy has always been fairly obvious from the outside. That said, I have serious doubts religion and hypocrisy are aligned anymore than the other sources of truth - especially when followed without applying critical thinking skills.
• ubermonkey 6y ago
  You went to Delphian? I had a coworker who went there. He had, uh, stories.
  • whalesalad 6y ago
    Delphi Academy was actually next door. I attended a school called Renaissance. All of the “Applied Scholastics” schools are a joke.
• bitshiftfaced 6y ago
  > So many people just want to belong to a group, or were raised in it and know nothing better. They don’t practice what they preach. And it's not necessarily a bad thing when you frame it as a cultural institution. For many people, they grew up with the church and its traditions. Their families and friends share the same traditions, and it's part of their identity. They may not believe in the supernatural stuff or even feel aligned with the moral system, but it's still part of their culture. You could say that's hypocritical, but we expect a an attitude of humility in regards to many cultures who have even more "backwards" practices than this. I think we ought to apply the same attitude here.
  • whalesalad 6y ago
    It becomes a problem though when you don’t subscribe or even understand the core tenets of your faith - and yet it is your identity. So you vote with your friends and family even if you don’t know what you’re voting for. And when you feel your tribe being threatened, you get defensive and defend your tribe - even when you don’t know what you are defending. That is why the US has become so divided recently. That is why the blind devotion to a cause should be questioned by every believer. “Wait a sec, do I really believe this? Do I really want this to be my identity?” You can be a good person without being a Catholic or a Muslim.
    • bitshiftfaced 6y ago
      Sure, there are some people out there like that, and it's true for every culture, and it's true that people ought to think for themselves. I think we can agree that religion and goodness can run orthogonally, but let's not be so paternalistic to assume that people are unable to participate within a community's cultural traditions without sacrificing their ability to think for themselves.
• vlunkr 6y ago
  I think hypocrisy is inevitable for a couple of reasons. 1) In theory, people go to church because they want to improve, not because they are already perfect. It's not hypocritical to make mistakes. 2) Hypocrisy is everywhere. No one really does scrum, no one really does TDD, no motivational speaker is happy all the time, and no christian is without sin. This shouldn't be surprising.