5 ms·

All I read is that: * the EU will give even more money to big EU corporation to produce very little * we will have 5G by force if need be (I don't believe it'

All I read is that: * the EU will give even more money to big EU corporation to produce very little * we will have 5G by force if need be (I don't believe it's inherently harmful but I just love things done by force when my net is, honestly... fast enough) * all my data will be pushed by force into EU "clouds", from identity to health data to whatever else so we can encourage some local data mining operations too * more regulations will be introduced which will mean only big business will dream of afford filling all the forms so my small business will be, as usual, ignored. In the mean time, I dread having a customer in another EU country due to the damn VAT which requires a separate fiscal/declaratory dance.

toyg 6y ago
A super-popular EU policy would be to have a blanket 20% VAT rate for anything sold online. No bands, no messing, nothing - just 27 countries agreeing that anything that touches the ‘net attracts a set tax level. Money sent to Bruxelles directly, which can then redistribute 50% on per-capita basis and 50% equally among countries. Boom, progress and wealth and job growth and benefits for everyone. But that would be too easy, wouldn’t it...?
- ArkanExplorer 6y ago
  Its a good idea but it would still be too high at 20% - 16% should be the target (the legal minimum). The reason North America, Australia, China are such attractive markets to sell into is because of their low sales tax rates. When sales taxes are high, it artificially increases the price of a product such that only the biggest and most established companies and product categories can survive. The American approach of taxing land/property heavily, and consumption minimally, is much more successful at actually encouraging innovation. Just use pollution, plastic, and obesity taxes to target unsustainable or unhealthy consumption.
  - bildung 6y ago
    > The reason North America, Australia, China are such attractive markets to sell into is because of their low sales tax rates. This is obviously wrong, each of these markets has a) vastly different tax rates (e.g. tax revenue per GDP per capita in China is 50% higher than that of the US) and taxation mechanics, and b) vastly different reasons for their respective releveance (i.e. industrialization in China, but raw materials in Australia).
  - toyg 6y ago
    I agree with most of your argument except this: > The reason North America, Australia, China are such attractive markets to sell into is because of their low sales tax rates. Not really. The attractiveness is the ratio of population times buying power over required cost and effort: (P x B) / (C + E). In those markets, in most sectors, you do your paperwork once and that's it, you get access to hundreds of millions of customers, so overall the Effort factor ends up being very low. The EU has probably the highest PxB factor, but it's bogged down by fragmentation both at the cultural level (dozens of languages) and at the bureaucratic level (dozens of very different legal and taxation systems), making E much higher than it could be. Cultural differences are not going away anytime soon, but unnecessary technical ones should be slowly eroded - which is what the EU project has largely been about, under the banner of "harmonization". So the problem is not necessarily the level of taxation. If the club is really really good once inside, businesses will have no problem paying a high "entrance fee" and following a strict "dress code". But if they also have to pay a different fee every time they enter a different room and follow a different dress code, then they will probably not come back.
- luckylion 6y ago
  it would also make things sold online more expensive in some countries. And it would also remove a large funding for nation states who would then heavily rely on the EU for everyday things, which would shift the power over to Brussels bureaucrats.
- Deukhoofd 6y ago
  A centralised tax system across the entire EU? Lets not go too crazy at once yet, maybe start with a European Ministry of Finance.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Recent history has shown than it's easier to establish technical institutions rather than political ones. It seems backwards (surely first you agree how to set rules, then set rules!) but in practice the very first hurdle is acceptance that rules should be set at all. So first you agree a basic set of rules that look unthreatening and reasonable, then build a case for common processes to amend those rules at a later stage. This is a somewhat dangerous path (what if those processes are never agreed?!?) but in practice it's much easier than persuading 27 tribes, from first principles, that they should follow a single chief.
  - auganov 6y ago
    I'd rather quit the EU, but if status quo is the only alternative then I'd prefer centralizing it. The current setup is pretty much the worst of both worlds. Individual states don't have much sovereignty left but all the useless bureaucracy remains. It's just duplicating all the work for no good reason. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the EU already has a floor set on VAT rates. You may have yours be lower but not by a lot.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Why so much taxes? On top of income and capital gains taxes...
AnssiH 6y ago
> In the mean time, I dread having a customer in another EU country due to the damn VAT which requires a separate fiscal/declaratory dance. For what it's worth, the EC recognizes that this is a huge issue, and it is discussed in e.g. the 2020 tax package action plan: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/2020_tax_package_tax_action_plan_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/2... > However, tax compliance costs remain high in the EU. Particularly, we need to support young and innovative businesses that struggle more with administrative complexity than big multinationals. Compliance costs are typically substantially higher for small than for large companies. Estimated tax compliance costs for large companies amount to about 2% of taxes paid, while for SMEs the estimate is about 30% of taxes paid. Moreover, the complexity that arises from the patchwork of 27 different tax systems not only creates loopholes for tax abuse, but also uncertainty for honest taxpayers that are simply overwhelmed and thus inadvertently do not comply with the rules. Whether the actions they've outlined will remedy this remains to be seen, but at least they are trying.
- Lionga 6y ago
  They are trying means it will be even worse than before.
  - AnssiH 6y ago
    Maybe, but the alternative of not even trying to make it better seems even worse to me.
    - Lionga 6y ago
      As they are almost always making things worse, not even trying would actually be better. That tells you a lot about EU.
      - toyg 6y ago
        I think this tells more about your opinions than anything about the EU.

toyg 6y ago

A super-popular EU policy would be to have a blanket 20% VAT rate for anything sold online. No bands, no messing, nothing - just 27 countries agreeing that anything that touches the ‘net attracts a set tax level. Money sent to Bruxelles directly, which can then redistribute 50% on per-capita basis and 50% equally among countries. Boom, progress and wealth and job growth and benefits for everyone. But that would be too easy, wouldn’t it...?

ArkanExplorer 6y ago
Its a good idea but it would still be too high at 20% - 16% should be the target (the legal minimum). The reason North America, Australia, China are such attractive markets to sell into is because of their low sales tax rates. When sales taxes are high, it artificially increases the price of a product such that only the biggest and most established companies and product categories can survive. The American approach of taxing land/property heavily, and consumption minimally, is much more successful at actually encouraging innovation. Just use pollution, plastic, and obesity taxes to target unsustainable or unhealthy consumption.
- bildung 6y ago
  > The reason North America, Australia, China are such attractive markets to sell into is because of their low sales tax rates. This is obviously wrong, each of these markets has a) vastly different tax rates (e.g. tax revenue per GDP per capita in China is 50% higher than that of the US) and taxation mechanics, and b) vastly different reasons for their respective releveance (i.e. industrialization in China, but raw materials in Australia).
- toyg 6y ago
  I agree with most of your argument except this: > The reason North America, Australia, China are such attractive markets to sell into is because of their low sales tax rates. Not really. The attractiveness is the ratio of population times buying power over required cost and effort: (P x B) / (C + E). In those markets, in most sectors, you do your paperwork once and that's it, you get access to hundreds of millions of customers, so overall the Effort factor ends up being very low. The EU has probably the highest PxB factor, but it's bogged down by fragmentation both at the cultural level (dozens of languages) and at the bureaucratic level (dozens of very different legal and taxation systems), making E much higher than it could be. Cultural differences are not going away anytime soon, but unnecessary technical ones should be slowly eroded - which is what the EU project has largely been about, under the banner of "harmonization". So the problem is not necessarily the level of taxation. If the club is really really good once inside, businesses will have no problem paying a high "entrance fee" and following a strict "dress code". But if they also have to pay a different fee every time they enter a different room and follow a different dress code, then they will probably not come back.
luckylion 6y ago
it would also make things sold online more expensive in some countries. And it would also remove a large funding for nation states who would then heavily rely on the EU for everyday things, which would shift the power over to Brussels bureaucrats.
Deukhoofd 6y ago
A centralised tax system across the entire EU? Lets not go too crazy at once yet, maybe start with a European Ministry of Finance.
- toyg 6y ago
  Recent history has shown than it's easier to establish technical institutions rather than political ones. It seems backwards (surely first you agree how to set rules, then set rules!) but in practice the very first hurdle is acceptance that rules should be set at all. So first you agree a basic set of rules that look unthreatening and reasonable, then build a case for common processes to amend those rules at a later stage. This is a somewhat dangerous path (what if those processes are never agreed?!?) but in practice it's much easier than persuading 27 tribes, from first principles, that they should follow a single chief.
- auganov 6y ago
  I'd rather quit the EU, but if status quo is the only alternative then I'd prefer centralizing it. The current setup is pretty much the worst of both worlds. Individual states don't have much sovereignty left but all the useless bureaucracy remains. It's just duplicating all the work for no good reason. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the EU already has a floor set on VAT rates. You may have yours be lower but not by a lot.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
908B64B197 6y ago
Why so much taxes? On top of income and capital gains taxes...

AnssiH 6y ago

> In the mean time, I dread having a customer in another EU country due to the damn VAT which requires a separate fiscal/declaratory dance. For what it's worth, the EC recognizes that this is a huge issue, and it is discussed in e.g. the 2020 tax package action plan: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/2020_tax_package_tax_action_plan_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/2... > However, tax compliance costs remain high in the EU. Particularly, we need to support young and innovative businesses that struggle more with administrative complexity than big multinationals. Compliance costs are typically substantially higher for small than for large companies. Estimated tax compliance costs for large companies amount to about 2% of taxes paid, while for SMEs the estimate is about 30% of taxes paid. Moreover, the complexity that arises from the patchwork of 27 different tax systems not only creates loopholes for tax abuse, but also uncertainty for honest taxpayers that are simply overwhelmed and thus inadvertently do not comply with the rules. Whether the actions they've outlined will remedy this remains to be seen, but at least they are trying.

Lionga 6y ago
They are trying means it will be even worse than before.
- AnssiH 6y ago
  Maybe, but the alternative of not even trying to make it better seems even worse to me.
  - Lionga 6y ago
    As they are almost always making things worse, not even trying would actually be better. That tells you a lot about EU.
    - toyg 6y ago
      I think this tells more about your opinions than anything about the EU.