5 ms·

It's a pity English speakers are often taught the wrong (English based) pronunciation. For self study I also suggest reading Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata, i

It's a pity English speakers are often taught the wrong (English based) pronunciation. For self study I also suggest reading Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata, it's a book completely written in Latin that gets progressively more complex and guides you through the language in an utilitarian way.

twic 6y ago
One of my Latin teachers (the one who was under 60) did try to teach us a proper pronuncation once, but quickly gave up. But i wonder, what is the point? I think the use cases for Latin are, from most to least important: 1. reading Latin texts 2. casually dropping Latin phrases to impress your friends and intimidate your enemies 3. writing Latin mottoes, naming species, etc 4. listening to that Finnish radio station that is in Latin 5. work conversations at the Vatican I think that none of these require historically correct Latin pronunciation. I assume that at the Vatican they speak some derivative of mediaeval Latin, and the signalling function of using Latin tags actually requires that you use the incorrect "classically educated Englishman" pronunciation.
- chrononaut 6y ago
  Not knowing Latin myself, I would imagine that learning Latin could also be a stepping stone to more thoroughly understand other related languages?
  - yorwba 6y ago
    But pronunciation is very variable, even living languages have multiple different pronunciations in use at any given time (a.k.a. accents) and for a language like Latin that has been in use for thousands of years, the possibilities are endless. Being able to establish one-to-one correspondences between Latin words and their descendants in modern languages can be helpful, but it doesn't matter much whether you're using the "correct" Latin pronunciation, so long as whatever pronunciation you do use maintains those correspondences.
    - tomcooks 6y ago
      Give it a try, it's what people do on a daily basis when trying to communicate with English speakers.
      - yorwba 6y ago
        If you want to use Latin to talk to people, you should probably use whatever pronunciation they expect, even if it's not "correct".
        bmj 6y ago
        I attend an Anglican church (in the U.S.). Our rector and deacon are both from England. They endlessly argue about the pronunciation of venite.
  - wenc 6y ago
    The written form, maybe, but the spoken form not likely. The Youtuber Ecolinguist ran an experiment where he had Romance language speakers (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian) try to guess at riddles in Latin. Turns out Classical Latin is actually very different from most Romance languages, which descended more from "Vulgar Latin". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77anb2DJGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77anb2DJGk
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- ferkad 6y ago
  ad 4. If you are referring to Nuntii Latini then it is no longer broadcasted. The final news service was emitted in 2019.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > I think that none of these require historically correct Latin pronunciation. That is true, but there are questions for which you want to know what the historical pronunciation was. For example, it's much easier to make sense of ancient misspellings if you can recognize that the misspelling and the target word would have sounded the same. Something similar holds for ancient jokes. > I assume that at the Vatican they speak some derivative of mediaeval Latin This is vague; the syntax and pronunciation of Latin change continuously into Italian. The rest of Italy has a better claim to be speaking "some derivative of medieval Latin" than the Vatican does; the Vatican's version presumably reflects mostly-arrested development after a certain point, as far as syntax goes. As for pronunciation, I tend to assume (without any relevant knowledge) that the Vatican's Latin pronunciation is just how the same written words would be pronounced in standard Italian. You can find similar conventions for other dead languages -- it's the only option available for Chinese where we just plain don't know what the pronunciation was in 600 BC, and it's "Reuchlinian pronunciation" in Greek. This approach has quite a bit to recommend it, most prominently that it's easy to find fluent models of the pronunciation of a living language.
- tomcooks 6y ago
  > One of my Latin teachers did try to teach us a proper pronuncation once, but quickly gave up. Basically what happens in Europe when students need to learn English pronunciation, but no way to give up. > But i wonder, what is the point? By learning Latin you multiply the speed at which you learn romance languages, which will allow you to understand and communicate with a much larger share of the world. Moreover, but this is a personal sidenote: why do people outside of the Anglosphere need to learn how to speak perfect English (and get the usual banter about pronunciation not being spotless), while the Anglosphere generally doesn't bother returning the favour (while at the same time complaining about being treated as uneducated, rude gringos)
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    I don’t think there’s any evidence that learning Latin helps you learn Romance languages any faster than learning a Romance language does. Why should learning Latin and then French be any faster than Spanish->French ?
    - bshimmin 6y ago
      I studied Latin and French from the age of 11. When I spent a year in Bologna as a student on the Erasmus scheme (studying Latin, in fact), I can assure you that my schoolboy French was the more useful of the two as a starting point for learning Italian.
      - CaptArmchair 6y ago
        I would like to add that that's not a coincidence either. The Late-Roman republic and the Roman Empire saw the emergence of vulgar Latin next to classical Latin. Vulgar Latin developed first in Italy and was subsequently adopted throughout the Empire. Vulgar Latin also saw active evolution during late antiquity. It diverged from classical Latin to a point where both lost out being mutual intelligible (7th century). That's when classical Latin became a dead language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vulgar_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vulgar_Latin The decline of the Roman Empire coincided with an age of mass migrations. As Roman influenced waned, people across the European peninsula fragmented. As did language development. That's where you find the common root of modern romance languages. Over the course of several centuries, local changes and influences forged distinct languages. For sure, classical Latin and modern romance language are all of the same family. But Cicero's Latin is further removed from French then modern day Italian.
- jthnews 6y ago
  You might be surprised at the size of the community of Latin speakers (outside the Vatican). It gets some attention from time to time on HN. For this community a shared pronunciation is crucial to being mutually intelligible. And I suppose it makes sense to use the one with the most support from the experts, even if it will always remain somewhat speculative. I take your point - it is possible to study and ready Latin without much regard for pronunciation. But I also feel that if you approach it this way you miss out on the fun of trying to recreate the speech of an ancient culture.
- teataster 6y ago
  Correct pronunciation is rather relevant for your first point, if you are trying to read poetry. Both latin and classical greek poetry has a "rhythm" based on the pronunciation of each syllable. In latin you won't get the rhythm unless you are very knowledgeable of the poetic forms or the correct pronunciation of words, since vowel spelling is overloaded: there are 10 latin vowels (excluding diphthongs) and 5 ways to write them traditionally. Same goes if you are interested in following a christian mass in latin. Songs make little sense without medieval/vatican pronunciation. I can read an ecclesiastic text, but I get nothing of what they are singing, since I was educated in classical latin.
- mudita 6y ago
  When you're learning latin, it's usually not mainly about the practical application, anyway, and aesthetically it feels somehow so much more pleasing to use the “correct” pronunciation - to me at least. Furthermore it can help to understand historic and linguistic relationships in unexpected ways: For example the German word for emperor “Kaiser” looks very different to the Latin “Caesar” and the relationship between those words remains obscured by the way most Germans pronounce Caesar. But it was a revelation to me, when I learned that “c” and “ae”are actually pronounced the same way as the “k” and “ai” in the German “Kaiser”. We literally still call emperors Caesar in German!
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    Aren't the "s" and the "s" different, though? And the "r" and the "r"?
    - QuercusMax 6y ago
      It's pretty dang close for 2100 years!
  - mmmmmbop 6y ago
    The Russian 'tsar' is similarly derived from Caesar.
jthnews 6y ago
Thanks for your interest! I agree about the pronunciation. The first of the videos is on that very topic. Also I second your suggestion of Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata. That is a great text. My goal is not to replace any of the existing tools, but rather to supplement them. There is no such thing as too much practice. Also, this presents a free alternative for those that might need one.
- tomcooks 6y ago
  Ah sorry I didn't mean to sound like that with the comment on the pronunciation, it was praise: fortunately someone like you is pushing for doing things the right way (and this removes the perceived cultural imperialism) Great job!
  - jthnews 6y ago
    No apology necessary. I sincerely appreciate any and all feedback on the project.
wrycoder 6y ago
A review of Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata on the excellent polyMATHY channel: https://youtu.be/5oJctKy_r6s https://youtu.be/5oJctKy_r6s
- jthnews 6y ago
  Thanks! Excellent text and excellent channel.
teataster 6y ago
I think Lingua Latina is an amazing book! PSA: you only need the first book. The second is pretty much a reader. It is still great, specially if you are interested in Classics. If you are interested in reading the Vulgate Bible or medieval works, you can go ahead with those after the first book. Medieval latin is significantly easier than classics, so it may even be worth you while going through those even before going further with classics.
- jthnews 6y ago
  Agreed! That is unquestionably a great text for those who have access to it. Selfstudyclassics is aimed at those who might not have access to it, or who are looking for additional practice in the form of interactive exercises with explanations.
  - teataster 6y ago
    Oh, I was just riffing on the parent comment. I've had a look at your tool and I think is great. It greatly complements Lingua Latina and it is an essential tool for someone going through the traditional path of learning latin. I wish I had something like this when I was learning latin in highschool. Furthermore, anything that helps disseminate classics is great in my view. Thanks for your contribution!
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > PSA: you only need the first book. If I go to Amazon, the "Frequently bought together" section has: * This item:Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg Paperback CDN$39.05 * Exercitia Latina I: Exercises for Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg Paperback CDN$25.33 * Latine Disco, Student's Manual: Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg Paperback CDN$10.28 Is this a good combo? It appears that the second book is Roma Aeterna: correct?
  - teataster 6y ago
    I do not own latine disco. I did work through exercitia latina I, and it is great! And yes, Roma Aeterna is the second book. But you only need familia romana. Everything else is cherry on top, extremely useful if you want to write latin and it will help your learning a lot. However if you are strapped for cash, are not interested in writing, don't have lots of time, want to jump quickly into reading the Bible... Just go with familia romana. Furthermore op is giving lots of exercises, so that makes exercitia less relevant. But at the end of the day is your money and your choice. I am happy I have Roma Aeterna, but I did not finish it, and I read medieval works quite fluently. I just wanted to put that info out so everyone can make their best buying choice.
dghf 6y ago
> It's a pity English speakers are often taught the wrong (English based) pronunciation. Really? Still? I was taught Latin many years ago by a very conservative teacher, who insisted on classical pronunciation rather than the anglicised version (so "mah-ter" rather than "may-ter" for mater, etc.)
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  Same here, I don't think I have ever heard mater pronounced may-ter except by public school boys referring to their mother in English. I studied Latin from 1st form to 3rd form, 1966 to 1969. Hated it then but in recent years I've been making desultory attempts to learn it again.
coldcode 6y ago
I learned Latin in a public high school in the 70's, took 3 years of it. The teacher taught us correct pronunciation as best he could. It was actually the most popular class in the whole school due to the quality of the teacher. Sadly I don't remember much now.

twic 6y ago

One of my Latin teachers (the one who was under 60) did try to teach us a proper pronuncation once, but quickly gave up. But i wonder, what is the point? I think the use cases for Latin are, from most to least important: 1. reading Latin texts 2. casually dropping Latin phrases to impress your friends and intimidate your enemies 3. writing Latin mottoes, naming species, etc 4. listening to that Finnish radio station that is in Latin 5. work conversations at the Vatican I think that none of these require historically correct Latin pronunciation. I assume that at the Vatican they speak some derivative of mediaeval Latin, and the signalling function of using Latin tags actually requires that you use the incorrect "classically educated Englishman" pronunciation.

chrononaut 6y ago
Not knowing Latin myself, I would imagine that learning Latin could also be a stepping stone to more thoroughly understand other related languages?
- yorwba 6y ago
  But pronunciation is very variable, even living languages have multiple different pronunciations in use at any given time (a.k.a. accents) and for a language like Latin that has been in use for thousands of years, the possibilities are endless. Being able to establish one-to-one correspondences between Latin words and their descendants in modern languages can be helpful, but it doesn't matter much whether you're using the "correct" Latin pronunciation, so long as whatever pronunciation you do use maintains those correspondences.
  - tomcooks 6y ago
    Give it a try, it's what people do on a daily basis when trying to communicate with English speakers.
    - yorwba 6y ago
      If you want to use Latin to talk to people, you should probably use whatever pronunciation they expect, even if it's not "correct".
      - bmj 6y ago
        I attend an Anglican church (in the U.S.). Our rector and deacon are both from England. They endlessly argue about the pronunciation of venite.
- wenc 6y ago
  The written form, maybe, but the spoken form not likely. The Youtuber Ecolinguist ran an experiment where he had Romance language speakers (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian) try to guess at riddles in Latin. Turns out Classical Latin is actually very different from most Romance languages, which descended more from "Vulgar Latin". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77anb2DJGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77anb2DJGk
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
ferkad 6y ago
ad 4. If you are referring to Nuntii Latini then it is no longer broadcasted. The final news service was emitted in 2019.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> I think that none of these require historically correct Latin pronunciation. That is true, but there are questions for which you want to know what the historical pronunciation was. For example, it's much easier to make sense of ancient misspellings if you can recognize that the misspelling and the target word would have sounded the same. Something similar holds for ancient jokes. > I assume that at the Vatican they speak some derivative of mediaeval Latin This is vague; the syntax and pronunciation of Latin change continuously into Italian. The rest of Italy has a better claim to be speaking "some derivative of medieval Latin" than the Vatican does; the Vatican's version presumably reflects mostly-arrested development after a certain point, as far as syntax goes. As for pronunciation, I tend to assume (without any relevant knowledge) that the Vatican's Latin pronunciation is just how the same written words would be pronounced in standard Italian. You can find similar conventions for other dead languages -- it's the only option available for Chinese where we just plain don't know what the pronunciation was in 600 BC, and it's "Reuchlinian pronunciation" in Greek. This approach has quite a bit to recommend it, most prominently that it's easy to find fluent models of the pronunciation of a living language.
tomcooks 6y ago
> One of my Latin teachers did try to teach us a proper pronuncation once, but quickly gave up. Basically what happens in Europe when students need to learn English pronunciation, but no way to give up. > But i wonder, what is the point? By learning Latin you multiply the speed at which you learn romance languages, which will allow you to understand and communicate with a much larger share of the world. Moreover, but this is a personal sidenote: why do people outside of the Anglosphere need to learn how to speak perfect English (and get the usual banter about pronunciation not being spotless), while the Anglosphere generally doesn't bother returning the favour (while at the same time complaining about being treated as uneducated, rude gringos)
- umanwizard 6y ago
  I don’t think there’s any evidence that learning Latin helps you learn Romance languages any faster than learning a Romance language does. Why should learning Latin and then French be any faster than Spanish->French ?
  - bshimmin 6y ago
    I studied Latin and French from the age of 11. When I spent a year in Bologna as a student on the Erasmus scheme (studying Latin, in fact), I can assure you that my schoolboy French was the more useful of the two as a starting point for learning Italian.
    - CaptArmchair 6y ago
      I would like to add that that's not a coincidence either. The Late-Roman republic and the Roman Empire saw the emergence of vulgar Latin next to classical Latin. Vulgar Latin developed first in Italy and was subsequently adopted throughout the Empire. Vulgar Latin also saw active evolution during late antiquity. It diverged from classical Latin to a point where both lost out being mutual intelligible (7th century). That's when classical Latin became a dead language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vulgar_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vulgar_Latin The decline of the Roman Empire coincided with an age of mass migrations. As Roman influenced waned, people across the European peninsula fragmented. As did language development. That's where you find the common root of modern romance languages. Over the course of several centuries, local changes and influences forged distinct languages. For sure, classical Latin and modern romance language are all of the same family. But Cicero's Latin is further removed from French then modern day Italian.
jthnews 6y ago
You might be surprised at the size of the community of Latin speakers (outside the Vatican). It gets some attention from time to time on HN. For this community a shared pronunciation is crucial to being mutually intelligible. And I suppose it makes sense to use the one with the most support from the experts, even if it will always remain somewhat speculative. I take your point - it is possible to study and ready Latin without much regard for pronunciation. But I also feel that if you approach it this way you miss out on the fun of trying to recreate the speech of an ancient culture.
teataster 6y ago
Correct pronunciation is rather relevant for your first point, if you are trying to read poetry. Both latin and classical greek poetry has a "rhythm" based on the pronunciation of each syllable. In latin you won't get the rhythm unless you are very knowledgeable of the poetic forms or the correct pronunciation of words, since vowel spelling is overloaded: there are 10 latin vowels (excluding diphthongs) and 5 ways to write them traditionally. Same goes if you are interested in following a christian mass in latin. Songs make little sense without medieval/vatican pronunciation. I can read an ecclesiastic text, but I get nothing of what they are singing, since I was educated in classical latin.
mudita 6y ago
When you're learning latin, it's usually not mainly about the practical application, anyway, and aesthetically it feels somehow so much more pleasing to use the “correct” pronunciation - to me at least. Furthermore it can help to understand historic and linguistic relationships in unexpected ways: For example the German word for emperor “Kaiser” looks very different to the Latin “Caesar” and the relationship between those words remains obscured by the way most Germans pronounce Caesar. But it was a revelation to me, when I learned that “c” and “ae”are actually pronounced the same way as the “k” and “ai” in the German “Kaiser”. We literally still call emperors Caesar in German!
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  Aren't the "s" and the "s" different, though? And the "r" and the "r"?
  - QuercusMax 6y ago
    It's pretty dang close for 2100 years!
- mmmmmbop 6y ago
  The Russian 'tsar' is similarly derived from Caesar.

jthnews 6y ago

Thanks for your interest! I agree about the pronunciation. The first of the videos is on that very topic. Also I second your suggestion of Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata. That is a great text. My goal is not to replace any of the existing tools, but rather to supplement them. There is no such thing as too much practice. Also, this presents a free alternative for those that might need one.

tomcooks 6y ago
Ah sorry I didn't mean to sound like that with the comment on the pronunciation, it was praise: fortunately someone like you is pushing for doing things the right way (and this removes the perceived cultural imperialism) Great job!
- jthnews 6y ago
  No apology necessary. I sincerely appreciate any and all feedback on the project.

wrycoder 6y ago

A review of Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata on the excellent polyMATHY channel: https://youtu.be/5oJctKy_r6s https://youtu.be/5oJctKy_r6s

jthnews 6y ago
Thanks! Excellent text and excellent channel.

teataster 6y ago

I think Lingua Latina is an amazing book! PSA: you only need the first book. The second is pretty much a reader. It is still great, specially if you are interested in Classics. If you are interested in reading the Vulgate Bible or medieval works, you can go ahead with those after the first book. Medieval latin is significantly easier than classics, so it may even be worth you while going through those even before going further with classics.

jthnews 6y ago
Agreed! That is unquestionably a great text for those who have access to it. Selfstudyclassics is aimed at those who might not have access to it, or who are looking for additional practice in the form of interactive exercises with explanations.
- teataster 6y ago
  Oh, I was just riffing on the parent comment. I've had a look at your tool and I think is great. It greatly complements Lingua Latina and it is an essential tool for someone going through the traditional path of learning latin. I wish I had something like this when I was learning latin in highschool. Furthermore, anything that helps disseminate classics is great in my view. Thanks for your contribution!
throw0101a 6y ago
> PSA: you only need the first book. If I go to Amazon, the "Frequently bought together" section has: * This item:Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg Paperback CDN$39.05 * Exercitia Latina I: Exercises for Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg Paperback CDN$25.33 * Latine Disco, Student's Manual: Familia Romana by Hans H. Ørberg Paperback CDN$10.28 Is this a good combo? It appears that the second book is Roma Aeterna: correct?
- teataster 6y ago
  I do not own latine disco. I did work through exercitia latina I, and it is great! And yes, Roma Aeterna is the second book. But you only need familia romana. Everything else is cherry on top, extremely useful if you want to write latin and it will help your learning a lot. However if you are strapped for cash, are not interested in writing, don't have lots of time, want to jump quickly into reading the Bible... Just go with familia romana. Furthermore op is giving lots of exercises, so that makes exercitia less relevant. But at the end of the day is your money and your choice. I am happy I have Roma Aeterna, but I did not finish it, and I read medieval works quite fluently. I just wanted to put that info out so everyone can make their best buying choice.

dghf 6y ago

> It's a pity English speakers are often taught the wrong (English based) pronunciation. Really? Still? I was taught Latin many years ago by a very conservative teacher, who insisted on classical pronunciation rather than the anglicised version (so "mah-ter" rather than "may-ter" for mater, etc.)

kwhitefoot 6y ago
Same here, I don't think I have ever heard mater pronounced may-ter except by public school boys referring to their mother in English. I studied Latin from 1st form to 3rd form, 1966 to 1969. Hated it then but in recent years I've been making desultory attempts to learn it again.

coldcode 6y ago

I learned Latin in a public high school in the 70's, took 3 years of it. The teacher taught us correct pronunciation as best he could. It was actually the most popular class in the whole school due to the quality of the teacher. Sadly I don't remember much now.