9 ms·

> what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour. I disagree, it's all very much overblown.

by zecg 6y ago

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there? I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitimate criticism (assuming it is) with what is basically lies. "Might as well call him a few other bad names while we're at it for maximum impact"?. Why? [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html
- bitwize 6y ago
  It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.
  - orra 6y ago
    That policy has since been updated to allow singular they, despite Stallman's objection to singular they. But now the footnote of the policy would allow you to call a trans woman "they" and never "her". That's not something transphobes (or anybody else) would ever do to a cis woman.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      FWIW, I tried to get in the habit of using singular-“they” for everyone, even where I know their gender and they are cis, to reduce any subconscious gender bias. This has had two effects: learning that some trans people really don’t like that, and everyone assuming my partner is a dude. (He is, but I’m bi and therefore this is mere coincidence).
      - orra 6y ago
        Interesting. I've taken to calling my partner "partner", to be gender neutral. But in the short term, people probably incorrectly infer I use the term because I am gay. Or, if they're presumptive but less presumptive, gay or bi.
    - buisi 6y ago
      Has he objected? If he is voicing his opinion on his blog, but the policy for GNU (which he runs) is otherwise progressive, then it feels like he is separating his personal opinions from how he operates a professional venue.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...? This sort of attitude is seriously disrespectful to people who are actually being harmed, offended, and physically chased away from real spaces.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      > Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people Chosing to reject someone's identity is persecuting them, yes. Luckily in England the courts agree and transphobes who refuse to use people's correct pronouns often lose their employment tribunal cases.
      - toyg 6y ago
        “Often” - I’d be curious to see stats. Not that I don’t believe you, I do; I’m just thinking this is such an edge case of an edge case, that the trade-offs involved in accommodating it might not be worth for society at large. After all, the Holy Inquisition made ultracatholics very happy too.
      - bitwize 6y ago
        It's actually a hate crime in Canada. You deliberately misgender someone, you can expect to be arrested and maybe spend time in prison.
    - daveoc64 6y ago
      > Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...? If you're intentionally going out of your way to use a pronoun that someone doesn't feel represents them, then yes - that is persecuting them. If someone asks you to stop, and you keep doing it - that's persecuting them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
    In the linked guidelines it says the following: > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. > There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. > One choice is singular use of “they,” “them” and “their.” > Another choice uses the gender-neutral singular pronouns, “person,” “per” and “pers,” which are used in Information for Maintainers of GNU Software. > Other gender-neutral pronouns have also been used in English. I'm genuinely trying to understand this. That does not spell a strong opposition to the supposedly preferred use of "they". But even then, does that really warrant the label "transphobe"? Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points?
    - orra 6y ago
      > There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. I have explained elsewhere in this thread why it's problematic to call a he/him trans man "they" and never "him" > That does not spell a strong opposition to the supposedly preferred use of "they". A previous version of the guidelines banned singular they. It has single been updated, even though Stallman on his personal site continues his disapproval. > Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points Rejecting gender identities is core to being a transphobe.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      I feel like you're stuck on the reference to the guidelines. People are combing the guidelines with other things RMS has said about the word "they". RMS has spent several years railing against "them"/"they", based on his flawed understanding of English. > Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points? If you know my pronouns are he/him but you decide that you can't use those and insist on using they/them instead then yes, you have an irrational dislike of trans people and you're a transphobe, unless you can show that you only use gender neutral pronouns for everyone.
  - Shish2k 6y ago
    TBH even as a nonbinary person who goes by singular “they”, even I think that singular-they is ambiguous and I wish that some other non-ambiguous singular-gender-neutral pronoun had taken off instead… (I’m still going by “they” because a bad standard beats an incompatible hodgepodge of non-standards)
- pjc50 6y ago
  It's the footnote. Call people by their pronouns, not some random one "per" you made up for them.
- orra 6y ago
  The footnote of that policy allows you to persistently call a trans man "they", even if his preferred pronoun is he. That is, the policy endorses you misgendering. Calling a he/him person a "they" is a way of saying that you don't think they're a real man. It's really not much better than calling a trans man "her". Finally, the previous version of the said guidelines used to reject singular they. Singular they is a great way to refer to somebody whose pronouns you don't know. Moreover, it's the preferred pronoun for many non-binary people.
  - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
    Then what about the following part from the guidelines: > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it.
    - orra 6y ago
      The guideline argues "they" is gender neutral, so it does not conflict with anybody's gender identity. This misses the point. "they" is indeed gender neutral. But when we talk about specific individuals, we almost always use gendered pronouns. Hence, as I said, persistently using "they" for a binary trans person is a veiled insult. Again, it's like saying 'You're not a real man, but I am not allowed to call you she, so I will call you they'.
      - jhugo 6y ago
        Knowing very little about this issue, this seems like a minefield. I have met many people whose native language doesn't have gendered pronouns, who make mistakes constantly when trying to use them in English and eventually learn to use "they" consistently to avoid getting it wrong. According to this standard, they would be being disrespectful whenever they meet someone with a strong preference about their pronoun, even if they had no knowledge of the preference.
        orra 6y ago

> what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour. I disagree, it's all very much overblown.

by zecg 6y ago

> what I gather from the discussion is that there is a _pattern_ of bad behaviour. I disagree, it's all very much overblown.

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago

I can't comment on most of the accusations, I have never met rms in person. But what really shocked me was that the authors of the anti rms letter label him as "transphobe", as a source for that claim they link to his GNU Kind Communications Guidelines [1], which to me spell the exact opposite. Why put such a claim in there? I find it really disturbing that so many people willingly accept that it's ok to mix legitimate criticism (assuming it is) with what is basically lies. "Might as well call him a few other bad names while we're at it for maximum impact"?. Why? [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

bitwize 6y ago
It's the bit about singular "they". RMS for some reason doesn't like singular "they", despite the fact that it predates singular "you" in common English usage. Singular "they" also happens to be, by far, the preferred pronoun of nonbinary people. By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people from participation in GNU projects.
- orra 6y ago
  That policy has since been updated to allow singular they, despite Stallman's objection to singular they. But now the footnote of the policy would allow you to call a trans woman "they" and never "her". That's not something transphobes (or anybody else) would ever do to a cis woman.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    FWIW, I tried to get in the habit of using singular-“they” for everyone, even where I know their gender and they are cis, to reduce any subconscious gender bias. This has had two effects: learning that some trans people really don’t like that, and everyone assuming my partner is a dude. (He is, but I’m bi and therefore this is mere coincidence).
    - orra 6y ago
      Interesting. I've taken to calling my partner "partner", to be gender neutral. But in the short term, people probably incorrectly infer I use the term because I am gay. Or, if they're presumptive but less presumptive, gay or bi.
  - buisi 6y ago
    Has he objected? If he is voicing his opinion on his blog, but the policy for GNU (which he runs) is otherwise progressive, then it feels like he is separating his personal opinions from how he operates a professional venue.
- toyg 6y ago
  > By telling people not to use singular "they", RMS is harming, offending, and driving away nonbinary people Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...? This sort of attitude is seriously disrespectful to people who are actually being harmed, offended, and physically chased away from real spaces.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people Chosing to reject someone's identity is persecuting them, yes. Luckily in England the courts agree and transphobes who refuse to use people's correct pronouns often lose their employment tribunal cases.
    - toyg 6y ago
      “Often” - I’d be curious to see stats. Not that I don’t believe you, I do; I’m just thinking this is such an edge case of an edge case, that the trade-offs involved in accommodating it might not be worth for society at large. After all, the Holy Inquisition made ultracatholics very happy too.
    - bitwize 6y ago
      It's actually a hate crime in Canada. You deliberately misgender someone, you can expect to be arrested and maybe spend time in prison.
  - daveoc64 6y ago
    > Are we really at a point where a pronoun is persecuting people...? If you're intentionally going out of your way to use a pronoun that someone doesn't feel represents them, then yes - that is persecuting them. If someone asks you to stop, and you keep doing it - that's persecuting them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
  In the linked guidelines it says the following: > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. > There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. > One choice is singular use of “they,” “them” and “their.” > Another choice uses the gender-neutral singular pronouns, “person,” “per” and “pers,” which are used in Information for Maintainers of GNU Software. > Other gender-neutral pronouns have also been used in English. I'm genuinely trying to understand this. That does not spell a strong opposition to the supposedly preferred use of "they". But even then, does that really warrant the label "transphobe"? Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points?
  - orra 6y ago
    > There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. I have explained elsewhere in this thread why it's problematic to call a he/him trans man "they" and never "him" > That does not spell a strong opposition to the supposedly preferred use of "they". A previous version of the guidelines banned singular they. It has single been updated, even though Stallman on his personal site continues his disapproval. > Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points Rejecting gender identities is core to being a transphobe.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    I feel like you're stuck on the reference to the guidelines. People are combing the guidelines with other things RMS has said about the word "they". RMS has spent several years railing against "them"/"they", based on his flawed understanding of English. > Is that all it takes to qualify as a transphobe person, despite all the other points? If you know my pronouns are he/him but you decide that you can't use those and insist on using they/them instead then yes, you have an irrational dislike of trans people and you're a transphobe, unless you can show that you only use gender neutral pronouns for everyone.
- Shish2k 6y ago
  TBH even as a nonbinary person who goes by singular “they”, even I think that singular-they is ambiguous and I wish that some other non-ambiguous singular-gender-neutral pronoun had taken off instead… (I’m still going by “they” because a bad standard beats an incompatible hodgepodge of non-standards)
pjc50 6y ago
It's the footnote. Call people by their pronouns, not some random one "per" you made up for them.
orra 6y ago
The footnote of that policy allows you to persistently call a trans man "they", even if his preferred pronoun is he. That is, the policy endorses you misgendering. Calling a he/him person a "they" is a way of saying that you don't think they're a real man. It's really not much better than calling a trans man "her". Finally, the previous version of the said guidelines used to reject singular they. Singular they is a great way to refer to somebody whose pronouns you don't know. Moreover, it's the preferred pronoun for many non-binary people.
- 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
  Then what about the following part from the guidelines: > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it.
  - orra 6y ago
    The guideline argues "they" is gender neutral, so it does not conflict with anybody's gender identity. This misses the point. "they" is indeed gender neutral. But when we talk about specific individuals, we almost always use gendered pronouns. Hence, as I said, persistently using "they" for a binary trans person is a veiled insult. Again, it's like saying 'You're not a real man, but I am not allowed to call you she, so I will call you they'.
    - jhugo 6y ago
      Knowing very little about this issue, this seems like a minefield. I have met many people whose native language doesn't have gendered pronouns, who make mistakes constantly when trying to use them in English and eventually learn to use "they" consistently to avoid getting it wrong. According to this standard, they would be being disrespectful whenever they meet someone with a strong preference about their pronoun, even if they had no knowledge of the preference.
      - orra 6y ago