4 ms·

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. While I agree with most of your points on R

by thefz 6y ago

> I don't want to live in a world without American freedom of speech - where we can't be blunt and speak our minds. While I agree with most of your points on RMS: Freedom of speech exists and is enforced in other countries. Its dawn can be traced back to ancient Greece passing through renaissance and the French revolution. And ironically, the SJW cancel-culture is a US phenomenon only, it's nonexistent in the EU at least. Don't want to rub anyone the wrong way, but from an external standpoint, I would not want American freedom of speech right now, if this is what gets you.

oytis 6y ago
Still freedom of speech is understood much more literally and with fewer exceptions in U.S. than elsewhere. In Germany for one, there is no such thing as freedom of speech, but rather "freedom of opinion". Practically that means that if you want to say something that someone else is not going to like, you have to a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit b) still not to cross the line when your opinion can be considered offensive. This doesn't leave a lot of space for free speech. This is not to mention a list of forbidden opinions and symbols for which you will face repercussions from the state itself. Don't want to argue which is the right way, I just mean that "American freedom of speech" is a real thing.
- quonn 6y ago
  > a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit Surely you would face slander suits in the US as well if you lie about being touched?
  - oytis 6y ago
    There is a huge difference in who takes the burden of proof. In the U.S. if you accuse someone of slander, you have to prove that what they say is false and malicious. In Germany it's the other way round: the one who is accused is also the one who should prove that what they say is true. Which leaves e.g. little space for #metoo in Germany - either you have proofs and then you go to police/court - or you don't, and then you have to stay silent.
- thefz 6y ago
  Sorry but that is plain wrong. Freedom of speech in Italy is more or less the same of what you state to be "American freedom of speech", i.e. the right not to be persecuted for your ideas, with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence. This right includes other forms of communication such as writing and artistic expression. If you have time to translate this, the Italian form is even a bit less strict in definition : https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A0_di_manifestazione_del_pensiero https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A0_di_manifestazione...
  - oytis 6y ago
    > with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence These are important exceptions though. Absence of hate speech laws is one thing that makes "American freedom of speech" a pretty unique thing.
    - thefz 6y ago
      That's a step backward, not forward.
      - oytis 6y ago
        I don't think there is such thing as "backward" and "forward" here. They probably contribute to social peace, but put limits to the freedom of speech, which do not exist in the U.S.

by thefz 6y ago

oytis 6y ago

Still freedom of speech is understood much more literally and with fewer exceptions in U.S. than elsewhere. In Germany for one, there is no such thing as freedom of speech, but rather "freedom of opinion". Practically that means that if you want to say something that someone else is not going to like, you have to a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit b) still not to cross the line when your opinion can be considered offensive. This doesn't leave a lot of space for free speech. This is not to mention a list of forbidden opinions and symbols for which you will face repercussions from the state itself. Don't want to argue which is the right way, I just mean that "American freedom of speech" is a real thing.

quonn 6y ago
> a) take care not to bring up any facts (e.g. say that someone touched you inappropriately), because as soon as you do that you have to either provide a proof or face slander suit Surely you would face slander suits in the US as well if you lie about being touched?
- oytis 6y ago
  There is a huge difference in who takes the burden of proof. In the U.S. if you accuse someone of slander, you have to prove that what they say is false and malicious. In Germany it's the other way round: the one who is accused is also the one who should prove that what they say is true. Which leaves e.g. little space for #metoo in Germany - either you have proofs and then you go to police/court - or you don't, and then you have to stay silent.
thefz 6y ago
Sorry but that is plain wrong. Freedom of speech in Italy is more or less the same of what you state to be "American freedom of speech", i.e. the right not to be persecuted for your ideas, with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence. This right includes other forms of communication such as writing and artistic expression. If you have time to translate this, the Italian form is even a bit less strict in definition : https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A0_di_manifestazione_del_pensiero https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A0_di_manifestazione...
- oytis 6y ago
  > with some eexceptions being hate speech or incitement to violence These are important exceptions though. Absence of hate speech laws is one thing that makes "American freedom of speech" a pretty unique thing.
  - thefz 6y ago
    That's a step backward, not forward.
    - oytis 6y ago
      I don't think there is such thing as "backward" and "forward" here. They probably contribute to social peace, but put limits to the freedom of speech, which do not exist in the U.S.