6 ms·

People pay for the energy they use, and do what they want with it. I don't think it's anybody else's business what it's used for.

satellite2 6y ago
I'm pretty sure if you start to buy any substantial proportion of the global supply of food to burn it, raising its price and reducing its availability in the process, you would soon have laws or ordinances banning you from doing so.
- chroem- 6y ago
  Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why? [1] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-way-to-measure-bitcoin-network-electrical-consumption https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-...
  - rl3 6y ago
    >Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why?* Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard.
    - chroem- 6y ago
      But you could make identical arguments for gaming, so I don't see how that applies: >Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. The ability to conduct business under oppressive regimes in foreign countries also has value. > Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. The same happens with gamers buying up cards, and there have been shortages pre-crypto as well. > Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Why can't you entertain yourself with something that's less damaging to the environment, like watching a movie? > Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard. The same could be said for the gaming community, which is saturated with misogyny and racism. I suggest we ban gaming.
      - rl3 6y ago
        You're equating shortage driven by organic demand to that of shortage from cryptomining. The fundamental difference is that with organic demand, people typically just want one card. With crypto, the incentive is to get your hands on as many cards as you can, fuck everyone else. Then we find ourselves in this race to the bottom. Moreover, trying to equate the energy use of both activities is laughable when mining creates an environment where idle compute resources translate to lost profits. I'm sure many people have taken up watching movies instead. Thing is, the net energy use is still vastly higher because mining creates a perverse incentive for virtually all GPUs to be hoarded, while drawing power 24/7. I don't disagree that a large swath of gaming culture is a cesspool, nor do I disagree that crypto has beneficial uses. I do however think both are beyond the scope of this discussion. What I'm saying is that the Proof-of-Work model has run amok and is a net detriment to society right now in its current incarnation.
        chroem- 6y ago
        Your argument is much like answering yes to the question "Does a pound of bricks weigh more than two pounds of feathers?" Gaming still uses more energy, even if you try to rationalize it by invoking the motivations of the people consuming the energy.
        rl3 6y ago
        It's peculiar you chose to focus on gaming. What of professional uses cases? Science, art, engineering. Even so, GPU demand from gaming is satisfiable. Mining demand only ceases once the price of the underlying instruments fall sufficiently. More mining won't necessarily make that happen. My argument is that the mining dynamic itself is potentially insatiable and fundamentally detrimental on a societal level, whilst highly distasteful at that. It's like advocating for a never-ending greed olympics.
        chroem- 6y ago
        The focus on gaming is just as arbitrary as the focus on bitcoin, and that's my point. Gaming consumes more energy than bitcoin and yet its economic justification is even less clear. And yes, gamers do cause GPU hardware shortages, and they have done so many times in the past. It boggles my mind that your hill to die on in fighting the "never-ending greed olympics" is a tool that's predominantly used by small-time retail investors, i.e. regular people. According to your system of ethics, it's preferable to be an old-money banker that profits off of the destruction of economy, than it is to be a person using tools (cryptocurrency) designed to divest control over the economy from said profiteers. I strongly suggest you take your war on greed to Wall Street, rather than directing it at the people trying to dismantle the greedy system in the first place.
  - henearkr 6y ago
    Because games serve another purpose than just the energy consumption. Whereas the bitcoin has no utility versus already existing fiat currency, except for the one to prevent any governmental fine tuning on the economics (by decentralizing). This fine tuning is notably required for, e.g., environmental issues, energy reforms, social support... or just for the government to work at all, deciding budgets, create laws and organize the society. Wanting to not participate in that in order to increase own's wealth is just wrong, and even wronger when you do that by monopolizing all of the planet's energy.
- kjksf 6y ago
  Cryptominers are sensitive to electricity prices so they seek to locate their operations where electricity is cheap. Simple logic dictates that they don't increase anyone's electricity price but taking advantage of the cheapest electricity there is. As to "reducing availability": when was this electricity shortage caused by bitcoin miners? It's astounding how easy it is to wage FUD and mis-information campaigns. Someone come up with this utterly idiotic argument of Bitcoin energy usage, it was picked up by the press, mindlessly repeated by people not willing to spend even few minutes dissecting it and now you can't have a HN article about Bitcoin without endless repetitions of this specious argument, which perpetuates it even more.
- philipkglass 6y ago
  Sadly, the United States has policies to specifically encourage burning food as fuel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol Corn ethanol is ethanol produced from corn biomass and is the main source of ethanol fuel in the United States. Approximately 25% of U.S. corn croplands are used for ethanol production. ... Since 2001, corn ethanol production has increased by more than seven times. [In] 2018, out of 14.62 billions of bushels of corn produced, 5.60 billions of bushels were used to produce corn ethanol, reported by the United States Department of Energy.
ben_w 6y ago
I was 8 or 9 when I learned about electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen and oxygen. Not sure how old I was when my dad warned me about chlorine if I used the wrong salt in the water, but chlorine is a nice clear example of why the thing you use the electricity for matters.
ForHackernews 6y ago
We have efficiency requirements for air conditioners and refrigerators, why not for cryptocurrencies?
- entropea 6y ago
  The more laws and regulations you add on, the less the entire thing begins to be its original idea of a free-for-all libertarian paradise currency and begins to make a lot less sense.
iSnow 6y ago
As long as you create zero externalities for others, you are right. BTC is the exact opposite, though.

satellite2 6y ago

I'm pretty sure if you start to buy any substantial proportion of the global supply of food to burn it, raising its price and reducing its availability in the process, you would soon have laws or ordinances banning you from doing so.

chroem- 6y ago
Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why? [1] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-way-to-measure-bitcoin-network-electrical-consumption https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-...
- rl3 6y ago
  >Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why?* Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard.
  - chroem- 6y ago
    But you could make identical arguments for gaming, so I don't see how that applies: >Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. The ability to conduct business under oppressive regimes in foreign countries also has value. > Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. The same happens with gamers buying up cards, and there have been shortages pre-crypto as well. > Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Why can't you entertain yourself with something that's less damaging to the environment, like watching a movie? > Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard. The same could be said for the gaming community, which is saturated with misogyny and racism. I suggest we ban gaming.
    - rl3 6y ago
      You're equating shortage driven by organic demand to that of shortage from cryptomining. The fundamental difference is that with organic demand, people typically just want one card. With crypto, the incentive is to get your hands on as many cards as you can, fuck everyone else. Then we find ourselves in this race to the bottom. Moreover, trying to equate the energy use of both activities is laughable when mining creates an environment where idle compute resources translate to lost profits. I'm sure many people have taken up watching movies instead. Thing is, the net energy use is still vastly higher because mining creates a perverse incentive for virtually all GPUs to be hoarded, while drawing power 24/7. I don't disagree that a large swath of gaming culture is a cesspool, nor do I disagree that crypto has beneficial uses. I do however think both are beyond the scope of this discussion. What I'm saying is that the Proof-of-Work model has run amok and is a net detriment to society right now in its current incarnation.
      - chroem- 6y ago
        Your argument is much like answering yes to the question "Does a pound of bricks weigh more than two pounds of feathers?" Gaming still uses more energy, even if you try to rationalize it by invoking the motivations of the people consuming the energy.
        rl3 6y ago
        It's peculiar you chose to focus on gaming. What of professional uses cases? Science, art, engineering. Even so, GPU demand from gaming is satisfiable. Mining demand only ceases once the price of the underlying instruments fall sufficiently. More mining won't necessarily make that happen. My argument is that the mining dynamic itself is potentially insatiable and fundamentally detrimental on a societal level, whilst highly distasteful at that. It's like advocating for a never-ending greed olympics.
        chroem- 6y ago
        The focus on gaming is just as arbitrary as the focus on bitcoin, and that's my point. Gaming consumes more energy than bitcoin and yet its economic justification is even less clear. And yes, gamers do cause GPU hardware shortages, and they have done so many times in the past. It boggles my mind that your hill to die on in fighting the "never-ending greed olympics" is a tool that's predominantly used by small-time retail investors, i.e. regular people. According to your system of ethics, it's preferable to be an old-money banker that profits off of the destruction of economy, than it is to be a person using tools (cryptocurrency) designed to divest control over the economy from said profiteers. I strongly suggest you take your war on greed to Wall Street, rather than directing it at the people trying to dismantle the greedy system in the first place.
- henearkr 6y ago
  Because games serve another purpose than just the energy consumption. Whereas the bitcoin has no utility versus already existing fiat currency, except for the one to prevent any governmental fine tuning on the economics (by decentralizing). This fine tuning is notably required for, e.g., environmental issues, energy reforms, social support... or just for the government to work at all, deciding budgets, create laws and organize the society. Wanting to not participate in that in order to increase own's wealth is just wrong, and even wronger when you do that by monopolizing all of the planet's energy.
kjksf 6y ago
Cryptominers are sensitive to electricity prices so they seek to locate their operations where electricity is cheap. Simple logic dictates that they don't increase anyone's electricity price but taking advantage of the cheapest electricity there is. As to "reducing availability": when was this electricity shortage caused by bitcoin miners? It's astounding how easy it is to wage FUD and mis-information campaigns. Someone come up with this utterly idiotic argument of Bitcoin energy usage, it was picked up by the press, mindlessly repeated by people not willing to spend even few minutes dissecting it and now you can't have a HN article about Bitcoin without endless repetitions of this specious argument, which perpetuates it even more.
philipkglass 6y ago
Sadly, the United States has policies to specifically encourage burning food as fuel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol Corn ethanol is ethanol produced from corn biomass and is the main source of ethanol fuel in the United States. Approximately 25% of U.S. corn croplands are used for ethanol production. ... Since 2001, corn ethanol production has increased by more than seven times. [In] 2018, out of 14.62 billions of bushels of corn produced, 5.60 billions of bushels were used to produce corn ethanol, reported by the United States Department of Energy.

ben_w 6y ago

I was 8 or 9 when I learned about electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen and oxygen. Not sure how old I was when my dad warned me about chlorine if I used the wrong salt in the water, but chlorine is a nice clear example of why the thing you use the electricity for matters.

ForHackernews 6y ago

We have efficiency requirements for air conditioners and refrigerators, why not for cryptocurrencies?

entropea 6y ago
The more laws and regulations you add on, the less the entire thing begins to be its original idea of a free-for-all libertarian paradise currency and begins to make a lot less sense.

iSnow 6y ago

As long as you create zero externalities for others, you are right. BTC is the exact opposite, though.