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The only good reason to outlaw Bitcoin would be because of its energy consumption. But there is no strong political power that has a say over that currently, so

The only good reason to outlaw Bitcoin would be because of its energy consumption. But there is no strong political power that has a say over that currently, so it doesn't seem likely. The article quoting prominent economists is totally irrelevant, so it's tempting to discard the article as providing very little informative content.

ben_w 6y ago
Governments generally care what economists think, so (fluffy articles aside) criticism by economists is a legit reason regardless of the energy concern.
hntroll666 6y ago
People pay for the energy they use, and do what they want with it. I don't think it's anybody else's business what it's used for.
- satellite2 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure if you start to buy any substantial proportion of the global supply of food to burn it, raising its price and reducing its availability in the process, you would soon have laws or ordinances banning you from doing so.
  - chroem- 6y ago
    Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why? [1] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-way-to-measure-bitcoin-network-electrical-consumption https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-...
    - rl3 6y ago
      >Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why?* Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard.
      - chroem- 6y ago
        But you could make identical arguments for gaming, so I don't see how that applies: >Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. The ability to conduct business under oppressive regimes in foreign countries also has value. > Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. The same happens with gamers buying up cards, and there have been shortages pre-crypto as well. > Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Why can't you entertain yourself with something that's less damaging to the environment, like watching a movie? > Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard. The same could be said for the gaming community, which is saturated with misogyny and racism. I suggest we ban gaming.
        rl3 6y ago
        You're equating shortage driven by organic demand to that of shortage from cryptomining. The fundamental difference is that with organic demand, people typically just want one card. With crypto, the incentive is to get your hands on as many cards as you can, fuck everyone else. Then we find ourselves in this race to the bottom. Moreover, trying to equate the energy use of both activities is laughable when mining creates an environment where idle compute resources translate to lost profits. I'm sure many people have taken up watching movies instead. Thing is, the net energy use is still vastly higher because mining creates a perverse incentive for virtually all GPUs to be hoarded, while drawing power 24/7. I don't disagree that a large swath of gaming culture is a cesspool, nor do I disagree that crypto has beneficial uses. I do however think both are beyond the scope of this discussion. What I'm saying is that the Proof-of-Work model has run amok and is a net detriment to society right now in its current incarnation.
        chroem- 6y ago
        Your argument is much like answering yes to the question "Does a pound of bricks weigh more than two pounds of feathers?" Gaming still uses more energy, even if you try to rationalize it by invoking the motivations of the people consuming the energy.
    - henearkr 6y ago
      Because games serve another purpose than just the energy consumption. Whereas the bitcoin has no utility versus already existing fiat currency, except for the one to prevent any governmental fine tuning on the economics (by decentralizing). This fine tuning is notably required for, e.g., environmental issues, energy reforms, social support... or just for the government to work at all, deciding budgets, create laws and organize the society. Wanting to not participate in that in order to increase own's wealth is just wrong, and even wronger when you do that by monopolizing all of the planet's energy.
  - kjksf 6y ago
    Cryptominers are sensitive to electricity prices so they seek to locate their operations where electricity is cheap. Simple logic dictates that they don't increase anyone's electricity price but taking advantage of the cheapest electricity there is. As to "reducing availability": when was this electricity shortage caused by bitcoin miners? It's astounding how easy it is to wage FUD and mis-information campaigns. Someone come up with this utterly idiotic argument of Bitcoin energy usage, it was picked up by the press, mindlessly repeated by people not willing to spend even few minutes dissecting it and now you can't have a HN article about Bitcoin without endless repetitions of this specious argument, which perpetuates it even more.
  - philipkglass 6y ago
    Sadly, the United States has policies to specifically encourage burning food as fuel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol Corn ethanol is ethanol produced from corn biomass and is the main source of ethanol fuel in the United States. Approximately 25% of U.S. corn croplands are used for ethanol production. ... Since 2001, corn ethanol production has increased by more than seven times. [In] 2018, out of 14.62 billions of bushels of corn produced, 5.60 billions of bushels were used to produce corn ethanol, reported by the United States Department of Energy.
- ben_w 6y ago
  I was 8 or 9 when I learned about electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen and oxygen. Not sure how old I was when my dad warned me about chlorine if I used the wrong salt in the water, but chlorine is a nice clear example of why the thing you use the electricity for matters.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  We have efficiency requirements for air conditioners and refrigerators, why not for cryptocurrencies?
  - entropea 6y ago
    The more laws and regulations you add on, the less the entire thing begins to be its original idea of a free-for-all libertarian paradise currency and begins to make a lot less sense.
- iSnow 6y ago
  As long as you create zero externalities for others, you are right. BTC is the exact opposite, though.
nullifidian 6y ago
Bitcoin enables tax evasion, sponsoring terrorism, all kinds of illicit trade, malware ransoms, and god knows what else. Isn't banning or hindering those in the interest of the general public?
- wadkar 6y ago
  Cash enables tax evasion, sponsoring terrorism, all kinds of … Should we ban cash?
  - nullifidian 6y ago
    >Cash enables tax evasion, sponsoring terrorism, all kinds of 99% of bitcoin use is speculation, which does not create any value for society, only wastes energy, and illicit transactions. Cash is actually useful, but it is indeed being used more and more for illicit transactions. >Should we ban cash? Maybe?
- madis 6y ago
  So does government money. And these uses are only a small percentage. I'd be like banning internet because it allows false news/cons/<your vice of choice>
  - entropea 6y ago
    >And these uses are only a small percentage. When you take transfers to and from exchanges out, what percentage of Bitcoin use is then crime compared to cash?
  - nullifidian 6y ago
    "Government money" is heavily regulated with with numerous provisions and international treaties , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer guidelines, and much more easily tracked.

ben_w 6y ago

Governments generally care what economists think, so (fluffy articles aside) criticism by economists is a legit reason regardless of the energy concern.

hntroll666 6y ago

People pay for the energy they use, and do what they want with it. I don't think it's anybody else's business what it's used for.

satellite2 6y ago
I'm pretty sure if you start to buy any substantial proportion of the global supply of food to burn it, raising its price and reducing its availability in the process, you would soon have laws or ordinances banning you from doing so.
- chroem- 6y ago
  Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why? [1] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-way-to-measure-bitcoin-network-electrical-consumption https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/introducing-cbei-a-new-...
  - rl3 6y ago
    >Supposedly (haven't dug into it yet) videogames consume more energy than bitcoin. [1] Yet we don't see a similar organized effort to ban gaming. Why?* Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard.
    - chroem- 6y ago
      But you could make identical arguments for gaming, so I don't see how that applies: >Because intellectual and entertainment pursuits generally benefit society. The ability to conduct business under oppressive regimes in foreign countries also has value. > Selfish fucks continuously buying up an already scarce supply of specialized microchips for the sole purpose of greed isn't really comparable. The same happens with gamers buying up cards, and there have been shortages pre-crypto as well. > Proof-of-Work crypto has completely screwed some scientists, artists, and just everyday people who might like to just unwind after a long day. During a global pandemic. Why can't you entertain yourself with something that's less damaging to the environment, like watching a movie? > Crypto in its current form tends to brings out the worst in us. It's kind of like social media in that regard. The same could be said for the gaming community, which is saturated with misogyny and racism. I suggest we ban gaming.
      - rl3 6y ago
        You're equating shortage driven by organic demand to that of shortage from cryptomining. The fundamental difference is that with organic demand, people typically just want one card. With crypto, the incentive is to get your hands on as many cards as you can, fuck everyone else. Then we find ourselves in this race to the bottom. Moreover, trying to equate the energy use of both activities is laughable when mining creates an environment where idle compute resources translate to lost profits. I'm sure many people have taken up watching movies instead. Thing is, the net energy use is still vastly higher because mining creates a perverse incentive for virtually all GPUs to be hoarded, while drawing power 24/7. I don't disagree that a large swath of gaming culture is a cesspool, nor do I disagree that crypto has beneficial uses. I do however think both are beyond the scope of this discussion. What I'm saying is that the Proof-of-Work model has run amok and is a net detriment to society right now in its current incarnation.
        chroem- 6y ago
        Your argument is much like answering yes to the question "Does a pound of bricks weigh more than two pounds of feathers?" Gaming still uses more energy, even if you try to rationalize it by invoking the motivations of the people consuming the energy.
  - henearkr 6y ago
    Because games serve another purpose than just the energy consumption. Whereas the bitcoin has no utility versus already existing fiat currency, except for the one to prevent any governmental fine tuning on the economics (by decentralizing). This fine tuning is notably required for, e.g., environmental issues, energy reforms, social support... or just for the government to work at all, deciding budgets, create laws and organize the society. Wanting to not participate in that in order to increase own's wealth is just wrong, and even wronger when you do that by monopolizing all of the planet's energy.
- kjksf 6y ago
  Cryptominers are sensitive to electricity prices so they seek to locate their operations where electricity is cheap. Simple logic dictates that they don't increase anyone's electricity price but taking advantage of the cheapest electricity there is. As to "reducing availability": when was this electricity shortage caused by bitcoin miners? It's astounding how easy it is to wage FUD and mis-information campaigns. Someone come up with this utterly idiotic argument of Bitcoin energy usage, it was picked up by the press, mindlessly repeated by people not willing to spend even few minutes dissecting it and now you can't have a HN article about Bitcoin without endless repetitions of this specious argument, which perpetuates it even more.
- philipkglass 6y ago
  Sadly, the United States has policies to specifically encourage burning food as fuel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol Corn ethanol is ethanol produced from corn biomass and is the main source of ethanol fuel in the United States. Approximately 25% of U.S. corn croplands are used for ethanol production. ... Since 2001, corn ethanol production has increased by more than seven times. [In] 2018, out of 14.62 billions of bushels of corn produced, 5.60 billions of bushels were used to produce corn ethanol, reported by the United States Department of Energy.
ben_w 6y ago
I was 8 or 9 when I learned about electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen and oxygen. Not sure how old I was when my dad warned me about chlorine if I used the wrong salt in the water, but chlorine is a nice clear example of why the thing you use the electricity for matters.
ForHackernews 6y ago
We have efficiency requirements for air conditioners and refrigerators, why not for cryptocurrencies?
- entropea 6y ago
  The more laws and regulations you add on, the less the entire thing begins to be its original idea of a free-for-all libertarian paradise currency and begins to make a lot less sense.
iSnow 6y ago
As long as you create zero externalities for others, you are right. BTC is the exact opposite, though.

nullifidian 6y ago

Bitcoin enables tax evasion, sponsoring terrorism, all kinds of illicit trade, malware ransoms, and god knows what else. Isn't banning or hindering those in the interest of the general public?

wadkar 6y ago
Cash enables tax evasion, sponsoring terrorism, all kinds of … Should we ban cash?
- nullifidian 6y ago
  >Cash enables tax evasion, sponsoring terrorism, all kinds of 99% of bitcoin use is speculation, which does not create any value for society, only wastes energy, and illicit transactions. Cash is actually useful, but it is indeed being used more and more for illicit transactions. >Should we ban cash? Maybe?
madis 6y ago
So does government money. And these uses are only a small percentage. I'd be like banning internet because it allows false news/cons/<your vice of choice>
- entropea 6y ago
  >And these uses are only a small percentage. When you take transfers to and from exchanges out, what percentage of Bitcoin use is then crime compared to cash?
- nullifidian 6y ago
  "Government money" is heavily regulated with with numerous provisions and international treaties , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer guidelines, and much more easily tracked.