4 ms·

This is the problem. America was supposed to be the land of the free, where anyone from anywhere could have an opportunity didn't matter who they where. Instea

This is the problem. America was supposed to be the land of the free, where anyone from anywhere could have an opportunity didn't matter who they where. Instead we created African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Gay-Americans, Straight-Americans, Native-Americans, etc, and everyone is out for themselves. And everyone is against one another. Female-led, Black-led, Latino-majority, who gives a fuck. Do your job better than yesterday if you even want a chance of someone giving a fuck. Racism is not something you fight with laws, racism and sexism is something you fight with actions. Promoting a "black-business" is not integration, just imagine being proud of having a "white-business". Promoting a "female-business" is not fighting sexism, imagine having a male only policy on anything and thinking you are helping. If we could forgo with the labels we would relieve so much pressure from society it's not even funny any more.

curiousmindz 6y ago
Sadly, it is not as simple as that: Imagine a society of squirrels and hamsters where squirrels have been oppressing hamsters for centuries. Then, one day, they decide to stop doing that and treat everyone the same. On average, a young squirrel will come from a family that is vastly richer and better educated than a young hamster. So, if they have to compete "fairly", the hamsters will remain much poorer for centuries more. This leads to a need to rebalance those two groups, and that rebalance means artificially propping up hamsters. Ideally, we would want to get to a world where the young squirrel and hamster can, on average, compete "fairly"... I have no idea how to achieve that while minimizing the negative side effects.
- insert_coin 6y ago
  If you begin by dividing society into squirrels and hamsters then of course you already lost.
- visarga 6y ago
  That would be like believing in original sin for squirrels, instituting the bad end of 'affirmative action' on them, all in the name of fairness of course.
  - cutemonster 6y ago
    > would be like believing in original sin for squirrel What, no! :-) It's instead taxes, and free university education, and free health care for everyone. And reaching out to historically unfairly treated groups, and inspiring (some of) them to start their own companies or become politicians. And things like the first exchanges in job applications being without photos and real names But not blaming "everyone" living today, for what some people in the past generations did
    - timeslip1523 6y ago
      Those things would be ok (there are unrelated reasons to be against free university for everyone, maybe, but whatever) but what you're talking about isn't what 'social justice advocates' want. In fact, many of them are against blind auditions, as they don't end up sometimes don't end up hiring people in the 'right' proportions, instead saying people should discriminate based on race (in the 'right' direction, of course.)
  - gambiting 6y ago
    Well but that's not such an outrageous concept, is it? Germany still pays war reparations, recognizing that due to their actions other countries have suffered. And yes, a young German nowadays might ask "well, why is my money going to foreign countries, for something that my grandparents did? How is that fair?". And well, they aren't entirely wrong, but they aren't entirely right either. Society has obligations which can last longer than a single generation. If society has systematically oppressed and made one group poorer, then society has the obligation to make it right. So yes, squirrels have the societal obligation to make it right for the hamsters, even if none of the original opressing squirrels are even alive.
    - visarga 6y ago
      > Well but that's not such an outrageous concept, is it? Germany still pays war reparations What makes me sad is when I hear stories like this - a young man who's passionate about some field got rejected even though he had a higher exam score. He put more time, more passion and more effort into it and yet it doesn't matter because his race-gender category is overrepresented. How can we discount personal effort in the name of justice?
- spottedgiraffe 6y ago
  Ideally we would rebalance between those from poor families and those from rich and educated ones. Oppression exists in different forms and there are also poor squirrels.
- durovo 6y ago
  Thankfully this does not apply exactly to issues relate to gender. Genders should be uniformly distributed across socio-economic classes.
benlivengood 6y ago
> This is the problem. America was supposed to be the land of the free, where anyone from anywhere could have an opportunity didn't matter who they where. What actually happened is that most Black people were owned as slaves and contributed 3/5ths of a person toward state representation, Native Americans were murdered, defrauded, and forcibly resettled, and women couldn't vote for the majority of the history of the U.S. > Instead we created African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Gay-Americans, Straight-Americans, Native-Americans, etc, and everyone is out for themselves. And everyone is against one another. We created each of these subgroups by treating certain people so badly because of their traits that they banded together for protection. > If we could forgo with the labels we would relieve so much pressure from society it's not even funny any more. We tried; it didn't work. The Constitution was worded very generically without labels, except for laws specific to native Americans, and using "he" as a pronoun. Most following laws followed the pattern. The result? Slavery, genocide, disenfranchising women.
- insert_coin 6y ago
  > We tried; it didn't work. The Constitution was worded very generically without labels, except for laws specific to native Americans, and using "he" as a pronoun. Most following laws followed the pattern. The result? Slavery, genocide, disenfranchising women. If you are gonna fight for historical reparations at least get your history right. The US didn’t invent slavery, didn’t perform the first genocide, nor the last, and didn’t treat women any different than any other modern society did at the same point point in time. The constitution is not responsible for any of that, despite all the “he”s you might find in it. These problems have been with us for centuries. There is no society that has ever existed that hasn’t encounter them. Progress only comes from realizing we are more equal than we are different. We should not go back to segregation, we should not keep creating labels-americans.
harleypig 6y ago
As usual, the Irish are left out in the cold. (disclaimer: I'm of Irish descent. It's a joke.)

curiousmindz 6y ago

Sadly, it is not as simple as that: Imagine a society of squirrels and hamsters where squirrels have been oppressing hamsters for centuries. Then, one day, they decide to stop doing that and treat everyone the same. On average, a young squirrel will come from a family that is vastly richer and better educated than a young hamster. So, if they have to compete "fairly", the hamsters will remain much poorer for centuries more. This leads to a need to rebalance those two groups, and that rebalance means artificially propping up hamsters. Ideally, we would want to get to a world where the young squirrel and hamster can, on average, compete "fairly"... I have no idea how to achieve that while minimizing the negative side effects.

insert_coin 6y ago
If you begin by dividing society into squirrels and hamsters then of course you already lost.
visarga 6y ago
That would be like believing in original sin for squirrels, instituting the bad end of 'affirmative action' on them, all in the name of fairness of course.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > would be like believing in original sin for squirrel What, no! :-) It's instead taxes, and free university education, and free health care for everyone. And reaching out to historically unfairly treated groups, and inspiring (some of) them to start their own companies or become politicians. And things like the first exchanges in job applications being without photos and real names But not blaming "everyone" living today, for what some people in the past generations did
  - timeslip1523 6y ago
    Those things would be ok (there are unrelated reasons to be against free university for everyone, maybe, but whatever) but what you're talking about isn't what 'social justice advocates' want. In fact, many of them are against blind auditions, as they don't end up sometimes don't end up hiring people in the 'right' proportions, instead saying people should discriminate based on race (in the 'right' direction, of course.)
- gambiting 6y ago
  Well but that's not such an outrageous concept, is it? Germany still pays war reparations, recognizing that due to their actions other countries have suffered. And yes, a young German nowadays might ask "well, why is my money going to foreign countries, for something that my grandparents did? How is that fair?". And well, they aren't entirely wrong, but they aren't entirely right either. Society has obligations which can last longer than a single generation. If society has systematically oppressed and made one group poorer, then society has the obligation to make it right. So yes, squirrels have the societal obligation to make it right for the hamsters, even if none of the original opressing squirrels are even alive.
  - visarga 6y ago
    > Well but that's not such an outrageous concept, is it? Germany still pays war reparations What makes me sad is when I hear stories like this - a young man who's passionate about some field got rejected even though he had a higher exam score. He put more time, more passion and more effort into it and yet it doesn't matter because his race-gender category is overrepresented. How can we discount personal effort in the name of justice?
spottedgiraffe 6y ago
Ideally we would rebalance between those from poor families and those from rich and educated ones. Oppression exists in different forms and there are also poor squirrels.
durovo 6y ago
Thankfully this does not apply exactly to issues relate to gender. Genders should be uniformly distributed across socio-economic classes.

benlivengood 6y ago

> This is the problem. America was supposed to be the land of the free, where anyone from anywhere could have an opportunity didn't matter who they where. What actually happened is that most Black people were owned as slaves and contributed 3/5ths of a person toward state representation, Native Americans were murdered, defrauded, and forcibly resettled, and women couldn't vote for the majority of the history of the U.S. > Instead we created African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Gay-Americans, Straight-Americans, Native-Americans, etc, and everyone is out for themselves. And everyone is against one another. We created each of these subgroups by treating certain people so badly because of their traits that they banded together for protection. > If we could forgo with the labels we would relieve so much pressure from society it's not even funny any more. We tried; it didn't work. The Constitution was worded very generically without labels, except for laws specific to native Americans, and using "he" as a pronoun. Most following laws followed the pattern. The result? Slavery, genocide, disenfranchising women.

insert_coin 6y ago
> We tried; it didn't work. The Constitution was worded very generically without labels, except for laws specific to native Americans, and using "he" as a pronoun. Most following laws followed the pattern. The result? Slavery, genocide, disenfranchising women. If you are gonna fight for historical reparations at least get your history right. The US didn’t invent slavery, didn’t perform the first genocide, nor the last, and didn’t treat women any different than any other modern society did at the same point point in time. The constitution is not responsible for any of that, despite all the “he”s you might find in it. These problems have been with us for centuries. There is no society that has ever existed that hasn’t encounter them. Progress only comes from realizing we are more equal than we are different. We should not go back to segregation, we should not keep creating labels-americans.

harleypig 6y ago

As usual, the Irish are left out in the cold. (disclaimer: I'm of Irish descent. It's a joke.)