6 ms·

A female founder acquaintance of mine (who's quite smart and capable) went on a Twitter screed a couple weeks ago. As it turns out, someone else had copied her

A female founder acquaintance of mine (who's quite smart and capable) went on a Twitter screed a couple weeks ago. As it turns out, someone else had copied her idea, and her startup now had a competitor. The competitor was also able to raise a solid amount of money despite her being first to market and her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation). So, this scenario isn't exactly uncommon in the startup world. It happens all the time. But because she's a minority female and her competitor is a white man, it suddenly becomes an example of white supremacy and the patriarchy conspiring to oppress her. The VCs who funded the competitor? Obviously racists and sexists, and she called them out explicitly as that on Twitter. I considered reaching out to her to offer some perspective, but ultimately demurred. Why? I didn't want to be caught in the wurlitzer. Better to let her make more problems for herself than offer a sense of perspective that could get me cancelled.

0_____0 6y ago
I remember some comedian pointing out, racism (sexism in this case) drives people crazy. Because it's subtle. Very rarely are people nowadays blatantly racist/sexist, because they get called out for it. But imagine that every time you have an 'off' experience with someone, you end up wondering whether your race or sex had something to do with it. It only takes a couple instances of finding out that that 'off' feeling did in fact mean racism or sexism for you to suspect that you just experienced discrimination every time it's possible. This understandably drives people f*** crazy.
- zszugyi 6y ago
  Sounds like microaggressions.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- CivBase 6y ago
  > But imagine that every time you have an 'off' experience with someone, you end up wondering whether your race or sex had something to do with it. I can't pretend to have any idea what that's like. However, I do know what it's like from the other side, wondering whether the things I say will be misconstrued as prejudice and whether any bad experience I have with someone of a difference race/sex/etc will be used to label me as a bigot. I don't think I ever thought differently of anyone for their sex or skin color as a kid. Now I'm so worried about offending people that I force myself to be hyper-aware of anyone with those kinds of traits that differ from my own. Maybe it's easy for me to say from my position, but I'm not sure how we'll ever come together so long as we keep highlighting those sorts of differences.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    I have heard a lot of people say that is what it is like to be a minority. You are always worried that what you say or do will fall into some negative stereotype. You don't speak the way you naturally do in public for fear of being branded "uneducated". And you completely avoid certain situations because you are simply tired of keeping your guard up. So if anything, maybe having to be on your guard all the time will help people learn what it is like to be a minority and can then understand why it is helpful to at least be somewhat thoughtful in how you treat people of diverse race/gender/cultural background.
    - CivBase 6y ago
      I'm not sure spreading the problem to everyone else is very good solution.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Is it a “lot of people?” Growing up as a brown guy in the south I’d think about my ethnicity maybe once a month? If that? I assume there’s a spectrum, but I also think the public view is very distorted by who gets amplified. You can’t get tenure or get your op-ed published in the NYT writing about how being a minority in the US is fine and people are pretty nice.
    - mc32 6y ago
      That in itself is a stereotype. Ask the people you know who fit your description if they feel like they have to put up a facade or keep up their guard. Let’s see how prevalent that is.
      - jjeaff 6y ago
        Yes, that is what I was alluding to. Multiple people I know, including several in my own family have said this is a thing.
  - 0_____0 6y ago
    Sounds like a lot of your anxiety comes from not having insight into the experiences of people that end up experiencing racism and sexism. You have the option of doing a bit of research and a bit of work to understand the 'other side' in these interactions. This pays off in a couple ways. First, you'll be more at ease in your interactions with women/POC. Second, people in those groups do notice when people put in a bit of self-work to build that empathy and create a good environment for that and over time will see you as an ally. Is that a process that you're willing to engage?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- drieddust 6y ago
  My advise as someone who has experienced this in many parts of the world including my own Country. Most people are subtle about it and I beilve it is their mental shortcut to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation. They are not doing it because they think they are truly superiors. So instead thinking world is unfair (racists, sexist etc.), I try to respond appropriately and in the moment. Current crisis is a direct result of people attributing too much meaning to simple negotiation tactics.
gadf 6y ago
So, this scenario isn't exactly uncommon in the startup world. It happens all the time. But because she's a minority female and her competitor is a white man, it suddenly becomes an example of white supremacy and the patriarchy conspiring to oppress her. Doesn't this sort of thinking basically make these notions into a conspiracy theory? Every piece of evidence interpreted in a way that it supports the chosen narrative. One consequence is so many opportunities for insight and thoughtful constructive reflection are lost. It's funny to me that under the guise of narratives that supposedly empower women (narratives which have also, as in the above example, been abused beyond their true purpose of calling out actual unfair bias), women are instead holding themselves back and getting in their own way mightily... and they don't seem to realize it? How can so many smart women have such a whopping blindspot to be duped into acting this way and think this is "power"? I think it has something to do with how compelling and self-satisfying these stories are. You know, the ability to blame everyone else rather than face yourself and take personal responsibility. So, sadly i think, many people just get addicted to this as a short circuit substitute for actually doing the hard work of processing experiences and cultivating useful insights out of them. They just short circuit to feeling good temporarily, sadly prioritizing these fake stories and reasons over getting results. It seems if a movement was really interested in empowering women it would try to address this glaring structural weakness of the current approach rather getting them hooked on these fake payoffs that don't get them anywhere :(
- scarmig 6y ago
  In some ways, it reminds me of incel-style thinking. You pick up on some signals that you're facing discrimination. Some or many of them are real. But then you elevate that discrimination into the primary component of your identity: you're a victim, and all your failures have nothing to do with things you have agency over and everything to do with how society is out to get you. Entirely unrelated things get pigeonholed into the paradigm you view the world through. And as a result you never recognize that you can potentially get better results by self improvement and assuming the people you meet are operating in good faith.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
cbozeman 6y ago
I feel like the key takeaway here is / was: > her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation) That sounds an awfully lot like, "We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong." I rarely try to rely on my own estimation of my knowledge, because I know I can't be objective.
- scarmig 6y ago
  For what it's worth, as a naive outsider who doesn't know much about the other founder, she seemed to have a good argument for why she would. It's just a bit of a stretch to think that a VC not giving her money must be because he was thinking "oh, she is definitely more competent and knows more about this space than this other founder, but because she's a woman I'm going to cut her out and go with the other guy."
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    Maybe they thought, oh, she is much more qualified than this other guy. But there is just something my gut is telling me about this guy... Or for some reason, I just feel more comfortable around this guy... Or, I'm going to invest in this guy because he reminds me of myself when I was starting out. In other words, unconscious bias.
    - scarmig 6y ago
      Sure, maybe. Or maybe he knew the other founder better and was more certain of his ability to execute well. It's impossible to say exactly what weightings of factors went into his decision making. His heart of hearts is unknown to all of us (even including himself, to some extent). Even if it were a case of unconscious bias, though, that doesn't mean she should be on Twitter accusing of him of committing collective violence against women of color by choosing to fund a white guy instead of her.
stcredzero 6y ago
Better to let her make more problems for herself than offer a sense of perspective that could get me cancelled. So it's come to this. People making accurate and pragmatic calculations on real-world cost/benefit, without malice, are making these decisions. What's amazing, is that it's largely the effect of the outrage mob itself. Let me explain. Answer me this: On average, does the outrage mob give as strong a response to an accusation, regardless of gender? Whether or not this is historically justified is irrelevant here, just whether or not such a bias or skew exists. For the sake of argument, let's say that such a bias exists in the outrage mob, and that it skews very powerfully in favor of accusations by women. Well, given this circumstance, accurate cost/benefit and expected outcome calculations are going to skew by gender. Women, on average, are going to present a much higher risk of bad outcomes from giving candid advice. In this way, the sexist, gender-biased reaction of the mob, combined with its outsized power, and the fear of accusations that damage without evidence, is itself distorting these individual decisions. In this way, the sexism of the outrage mob is causing a societal gender-skew which itself results in even more sexism. In my school days, we were taught the dangers of the mob mentality. We were taught that the mob too easily generates injustice, even evil and horror. Now, we are presented with another situation in which the mob generates more injustice: specifically more sexism. Go figure. Instead of this mess, how about some gender-neutral due process, innocent until proven guilty, and respect for evidence?
random5634 6y ago
I'm not so bothered by this personally because it's not someone asking / giving advice and getting blasted by it. That's the real crux that I see. The scenario you paint is uncomfortable - only because there have been a fair number of situations (music and elsewhere) where the white person really has raked in the cash off a minorities good idea. Luckily my friend was the competitor trying to compete in a market much more crowded than she perhaps realized.
phnofive 6y ago
> caught in the wurlitzer Never heard that one before. Sorry for the tangent, but is this a reference to the CIA’s “Mighty Wurlitzer”?
- scarmig 6y ago
  Yeah, though now I'm realizing it's a more unique/deanonymizing phrase than I anticipated... sometime in the 2000s it transitioned to being used to describe right-wing media circle jerks. I think it's something I picked up from the liberal blogosphere during its heyday.
koheripbal 6y ago
We review social media for management level hires. One of the big red flags is exactly this - accusing people/companies/organizations of sexism/racism/xenophobia/illegal activity/etc without providing any material evidence. This applies to both men and women, from any background. Even forgetting the potential for these accusations to be levied on us, it's simply a legal liability to have someone on the team that makes public accusations on social media without evidence. The last thing anyone wants is a lawsuit magnet on the team. Lawsuits are extremely expensive, even when you win.

0_____0 6y ago

I remember some comedian pointing out, racism (sexism in this case) drives people crazy. Because it's subtle. Very rarely are people nowadays blatantly racist/sexist, because they get called out for it. But imagine that every time you have an 'off' experience with someone, you end up wondering whether your race or sex had something to do with it. It only takes a couple instances of finding out that that 'off' feeling did in fact mean racism or sexism for you to suspect that you just experienced discrimination every time it's possible. This understandably drives people f*** crazy.

zszugyi 6y ago
Sounds like microaggressions.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
CivBase 6y ago
> But imagine that every time you have an 'off' experience with someone, you end up wondering whether your race or sex had something to do with it. I can't pretend to have any idea what that's like. However, I do know what it's like from the other side, wondering whether the things I say will be misconstrued as prejudice and whether any bad experience I have with someone of a difference race/sex/etc will be used to label me as a bigot. I don't think I ever thought differently of anyone for their sex or skin color as a kid. Now I'm so worried about offending people that I force myself to be hyper-aware of anyone with those kinds of traits that differ from my own. Maybe it's easy for me to say from my position, but I'm not sure how we'll ever come together so long as we keep highlighting those sorts of differences.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  I have heard a lot of people say that is what it is like to be a minority. You are always worried that what you say or do will fall into some negative stereotype. You don't speak the way you naturally do in public for fear of being branded "uneducated". And you completely avoid certain situations because you are simply tired of keeping your guard up. So if anything, maybe having to be on your guard all the time will help people learn what it is like to be a minority and can then understand why it is helpful to at least be somewhat thoughtful in how you treat people of diverse race/gender/cultural background.
  - CivBase 6y ago
    I'm not sure spreading the problem to everyone else is very good solution.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Is it a “lot of people?” Growing up as a brown guy in the south I’d think about my ethnicity maybe once a month? If that? I assume there’s a spectrum, but I also think the public view is very distorted by who gets amplified. You can’t get tenure or get your op-ed published in the NYT writing about how being a minority in the US is fine and people are pretty nice.
  - mc32 6y ago
    That in itself is a stereotype. Ask the people you know who fit your description if they feel like they have to put up a facade or keep up their guard. Let’s see how prevalent that is.
    - jjeaff 6y ago
      Yes, that is what I was alluding to. Multiple people I know, including several in my own family have said this is a thing.
- 0_____0 6y ago
  Sounds like a lot of your anxiety comes from not having insight into the experiences of people that end up experiencing racism and sexism. You have the option of doing a bit of research and a bit of work to understand the 'other side' in these interactions. This pays off in a couple ways. First, you'll be more at ease in your interactions with women/POC. Second, people in those groups do notice when people put in a bit of self-work to build that empathy and create a good environment for that and over time will see you as an ally. Is that a process that you're willing to engage?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
drieddust 6y ago
My advise as someone who has experienced this in many parts of the world including my own Country. Most people are subtle about it and I beilve it is their mental shortcut to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation. They are not doing it because they think they are truly superiors. So instead thinking world is unfair (racists, sexist etc.), I try to respond appropriately and in the moment. Current crisis is a direct result of people attributing too much meaning to simple negotiation tactics.

gadf 6y ago

So, this scenario isn't exactly uncommon in the startup world. It happens all the time. But because she's a minority female and her competitor is a white man, it suddenly becomes an example of white supremacy and the patriarchy conspiring to oppress her. Doesn't this sort of thinking basically make these notions into a conspiracy theory? Every piece of evidence interpreted in a way that it supports the chosen narrative. One consequence is so many opportunities for insight and thoughtful constructive reflection are lost. It's funny to me that under the guise of narratives that supposedly empower women (narratives which have also, as in the above example, been abused beyond their true purpose of calling out actual unfair bias), women are instead holding themselves back and getting in their own way mightily... and they don't seem to realize it? How can so many smart women have such a whopping blindspot to be duped into acting this way and think this is "power"? I think it has something to do with how compelling and self-satisfying these stories are. You know, the ability to blame everyone else rather than face yourself and take personal responsibility. So, sadly i think, many people just get addicted to this as a short circuit substitute for actually doing the hard work of processing experiences and cultivating useful insights out of them. They just short circuit to feeling good temporarily, sadly prioritizing these fake stories and reasons over getting results. It seems if a movement was really interested in empowering women it would try to address this glaring structural weakness of the current approach rather getting them hooked on these fake payoffs that don't get them anywhere :(

scarmig 6y ago
In some ways, it reminds me of incel-style thinking. You pick up on some signals that you're facing discrimination. Some or many of them are real. But then you elevate that discrimination into the primary component of your identity: you're a victim, and all your failures have nothing to do with things you have agency over and everything to do with how society is out to get you. Entirely unrelated things get pigeonholed into the paradigm you view the world through. And as a result you never recognize that you can potentially get better results by self improvement and assuming the people you meet are operating in good faith.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago

cbozeman 6y ago

I feel like the key takeaway here is / was: > her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation) That sounds an awfully lot like, "We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong." I rarely try to rely on my own estimation of my knowledge, because I know I can't be objective.

scarmig 6y ago
For what it's worth, as a naive outsider who doesn't know much about the other founder, she seemed to have a good argument for why she would. It's just a bit of a stretch to think that a VC not giving her money must be because he was thinking "oh, she is definitely more competent and knows more about this space than this other founder, but because she's a woman I'm going to cut her out and go with the other guy."
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Maybe they thought, oh, she is much more qualified than this other guy. But there is just something my gut is telling me about this guy... Or for some reason, I just feel more comfortable around this guy... Or, I'm going to invest in this guy because he reminds me of myself when I was starting out. In other words, unconscious bias.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    Sure, maybe. Or maybe he knew the other founder better and was more certain of his ability to execute well. It's impossible to say exactly what weightings of factors went into his decision making. His heart of hearts is unknown to all of us (even including himself, to some extent). Even if it were a case of unconscious bias, though, that doesn't mean she should be on Twitter accusing of him of committing collective violence against women of color by choosing to fund a white guy instead of her.

stcredzero 6y ago

Better to let her make more problems for herself than offer a sense of perspective that could get me cancelled. So it's come to this. People making accurate and pragmatic calculations on real-world cost/benefit, without malice, are making these decisions. What's amazing, is that it's largely the effect of the outrage mob itself. Let me explain. Answer me this: On average, does the outrage mob give as strong a response to an accusation, regardless of gender? Whether or not this is historically justified is irrelevant here, just whether or not such a bias or skew exists. For the sake of argument, let's say that such a bias exists in the outrage mob, and that it skews very powerfully in favor of accusations by women. Well, given this circumstance, accurate cost/benefit and expected outcome calculations are going to skew by gender. Women, on average, are going to present a much higher risk of bad outcomes from giving candid advice. In this way, the sexist, gender-biased reaction of the mob, combined with its outsized power, and the fear of accusations that damage without evidence, is itself distorting these individual decisions. In this way, the sexism of the outrage mob is causing a societal gender-skew which itself results in even more sexism. In my school days, we were taught the dangers of the mob mentality. We were taught that the mob too easily generates injustice, even evil and horror. Now, we are presented with another situation in which the mob generates more injustice: specifically more sexism. Go figure. Instead of this mess, how about some gender-neutral due process, innocent until proven guilty, and respect for evidence?

random5634 6y ago

I'm not so bothered by this personally because it's not someone asking / giving advice and getting blasted by it. That's the real crux that I see. The scenario you paint is uncomfortable - only because there have been a fair number of situations (music and elsewhere) where the white person really has raked in the cash off a minorities good idea. Luckily my friend was the competitor trying to compete in a market much more crowded than she perhaps realized.

phnofive 6y ago

> caught in the wurlitzer Never heard that one before. Sorry for the tangent, but is this a reference to the CIA’s “Mighty Wurlitzer”?

scarmig 6y ago
Yeah, though now I'm realizing it's a more unique/deanonymizing phrase than I anticipated... sometime in the 2000s it transitioned to being used to describe right-wing media circle jerks. I think it's something I picked up from the liberal blogosphere during its heyday.

koheripbal 6y ago

We review social media for management level hires. One of the big red flags is exactly this - accusing people/companies/organizations of sexism/racism/xenophobia/illegal activity/etc without providing any material evidence. This applies to both men and women, from any background. Even forgetting the potential for these accusations to be levied on us, it's simply a legal liability to have someone on the team that makes public accusations on social media without evidence. The last thing anyone wants is a lawsuit magnet on the team. Lawsuits are extremely expensive, even when you win.