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> this sort of behavior drives away many people who could've made valuable contributions. The other thing to consider is that these movements to replace leader

by u801e 6y ago

> this sort of behavior drives away many people who could've made valuable contributions. The other thing to consider is that these movements to replace leadership or boards could drive away people who are currently making contributions. I believe that losing current contributors is a bigger loss than the, arguably hypothetical, new contributor(s) that could be gained.

chx 6y ago
This, however, is a hypothetical. For example, when the Linux project introduced the Code Of Conduct, such threats were made, however, at least as far as I am aware, no such departures have actually happened. Please let me know if I am incorrect. We have multiple reports on people leaving open source or not starting because of RMS. And other toxic people like Linus Torvalds. Like me.
- u801e 6y ago
  Many people say that people leave bad managers, not bad jobs. The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. If management changes, there's definitely a chance they won't stick around depending on what they do in terms of the direction of the FSF.
  - chx 6y ago
    > The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. Some people do. Some do not. https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 In Github's 2017 survey, 50% of the 5,500 respondents claimed they had witnessed toxic interactions while working on open-source projects, and that 18% of them had suffered through a negative interaction. Also, 95% of contributors were men and 3% were women. Are you sure people are still contributing or is it just men who do with very, very few women who is willing to put up with this? https://www.php.net/credits.php https://www.php.net/credits.php here, count the women. Or rather the woman! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life not. a. single. woman. Not all of this is on Stallman but as he is the figurehead of an entire movement, certainly at least some of it is.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      LOL'd hard at the Sarah Mei "toxicity" post... she's easily the most toxic person I can think about (at least, her online persona, I'm sure in person she cannot be that bad, and maybe she is even kind).
    - u801e 6y ago
      > Are you sure people are still contributing or is it just men who do with very, very few women who is willing to put up with this? The skewed male to female ratio isn't unique to software developed under the FSF. It's the case throughout the industry and even at the high school/college/graduate school level. Therefore, the lack of women contributing to projects within the FSF isn't because of RMS or the FSF board.
      - chx 6y ago
        This , again , is a skewing of facts: while it is true there is a gender disparity in tech , with about a very low 20% women in tech engineering, in open source it is 10% or even less.
        u801e 6y ago
        That doesn't mean that there's an inherent bias against women in open source software development. If what you're saying is true, then there must be an inherent bias against males when comparing preschool teachers (2.7% male) versus public school teachers (24% male). I don't believe there's an inherent bias in either case and the skewed gender ratio which varies depending on the area isn't due to a single person or group of people.
        chx 6y ago
        Not sure what you mean here. What I am saying, and this is backed by women self reporting, women leaving and statistics is that the toxicity of some of the leaders in open source lead them not start / leave open source.

by u801e 6y ago

chx 6y ago

This, however, is a hypothetical. For example, when the Linux project introduced the Code Of Conduct, such threats were made, however, at least as far as I am aware, no such departures have actually happened. Please let me know if I am incorrect. We have multiple reports on people leaving open source or not starting because of RMS. And other toxic people like Linus Torvalds. Like me.

u801e 6y ago
Many people say that people leave bad managers, not bad jobs. The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. If management changes, there's definitely a chance they won't stick around depending on what they do in terms of the direction of the FSF.
- chx 6y ago
  > The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. Some people do. Some do not. https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 In Github's 2017 survey, 50% of the 5,500 respondents claimed they had witnessed toxic interactions while working on open-source projects, and that 18% of them had suffered through a negative interaction. Also, 95% of contributors were men and 3% were women. Are you sure people are still contributing or is it just men who do with very, very few women who is willing to put up with this? https://www.php.net/credits.php https://www.php.net/credits.php here, count the women. Or rather the woman! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life not. a. single. woman. Not all of this is on Stallman but as he is the figurehead of an entire movement, certainly at least some of it is.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    LOL'd hard at the Sarah Mei "toxicity" post... she's easily the most toxic person I can think about (at least, her online persona, I'm sure in person she cannot be that bad, and maybe she is even kind).
  - u801e 6y ago
    > Are you sure people are still contributing or is it just men who do with very, very few women who is willing to put up with this? The skewed male to female ratio isn't unique to software developed under the FSF. It's the case throughout the industry and even at the high school/college/graduate school level. Therefore, the lack of women contributing to projects within the FSF isn't because of RMS or the FSF board.
    - chx 6y ago
      This , again , is a skewing of facts: while it is true there is a gender disparity in tech , with about a very low 20% women in tech engineering, in open source it is 10% or even less.
      - u801e 6y ago
        That doesn't mean that there's an inherent bias against women in open source software development. If what you're saying is true, then there must be an inherent bias against males when comparing preschool teachers (2.7% male) versus public school teachers (24% male). I don't believe there's an inherent bias in either case and the skewed gender ratio which varies depending on the area isn't due to a single person or group of people.
        chx 6y ago
        Not sure what you mean here. What I am saying, and this is backed by women self reporting, women leaving and statistics is that the toxicity of some of the leaders in open source lead them not start / leave open source.